Author Topic: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef  (Read 33008 times)

Offline mousEtopher

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2016, 10:32:18 PM »
noice! Looking forward to it! Tora, I hope you & others will be in the games too, it's nice to have the in-game commentary & banter ;D
squeak!

Offline tk[as]

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #91 on: November 19, 2016, 01:28:49 AM »
ill stream with a 3-4 min delay
Awesome, yamon u streaming too?
no i asked mousey to stream it
why wouldnt u stream...

Offline Paper_Boy

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2016, 02:31:19 AM »
Cool thing about Warcraft is every game is truly unique. There is no such thing as an unbeatable strat for 12 to execute, nor is there a silver bullet strategy for 6. There is pretty much an effective counter for every strategy, the trick comes down to making the proper reads and continually tailoring your response to their own counter responses. You need to define all the parameters of the pros and cons of 6 and also have a clear idea of strats and builds you wish to incorporate  into your arsenal. Slow gold from 6 early on means you’re vulnerable early on, so a defensive posture is typically advisable at that stage. You can use the tree line for a choke point, but you will usually get hit before you have time to fill that space. They can reverse choke your buildings and then you spend money repairing or weaken your rush by having to build a tower. You can use good UC, pick off early scout grunts and get a numbers advantage and reverse choke 12 or 2 and make him rep early or get D. You also need to build in a way where its easy to defend the farms in your ot spot, that don’t take a peon out of commission and that doesn’t become an easy soft target for them to exploit. You don’t even have to farm your back,  you can just run to s9 and keep up the rush 2 halled. 6 Has really fast lumber if you build your mill properly on the back left bottom side and don’t waste space. It’s good to have a choke point up top for a scout and a fall back choke point as well. Good Rax positioning for a fast seamless flow to your army can be an issue. As mid and late game approaches 6’s gold becomes less of an issue and you can blow your mine at nearly the same time as 12/2. Most people don’t notice cuz they kind of p stop a little here n there but if you’re a relentless pumper you will notice 12’s gold slows and clogs and has to manually be adjusted. 6 has a GREAT flow for many peons, most people kind of peon stop though which you should try to avoid unless you’re trying to survive or think you’ve identified when they will be weakest then you can really go for the kill. Don’t go keep too soon! a lot of people starve their resources going keep too fast thinking 1st to keep is 1st to Lust. Doesn’t work that way, you can rep harder or have more to throw at them b4 late game and at least match lust. Continually scout them and make observations, slow levels, early 1 or 2 rax, choke points, know their tendencies, early mill , hard rush, gt or cat for D. 12/2 people try to win with a sledge hammer instead of a hammer and will either super hard rush or go for that fast power ( they’re better off just using a hammer vs some1 awake) Your job from 6 is to use a chisel and pick them apart piece by piece while buying time early on.


Scouting, tactics and instinct are what help you with your strat selection. Tactics are automatic reactions and require no thought, when they make a mistake or don’t seize an opportunity you press your advantage like reverse choke, lumber bash, lure. Some examples of popular 12/2 strats and their weakest points:


12 -  1 rax make 7 lvl 3 grunts for a 3v2 choke and pop a cat (cheaper than a tower)
Cons - Early mill weakens their rush at that early stage and it takes a while to make a catapult.

Counter- P stop rush with an ot Hidden or in their FACE, just make them repair a little before cat ups slow their econ n tech. Begin farming in a counter dual early on since they can’t kill it yet. 4v3 choke easier to break especially if you have levels before focus attack and run in , hide a 2nd rax near 12/2 and pop a cat or run it from 6 but that takes a while


2 rax hard rush -
Cons - Slower lust

You can match his lust, even if he’s slightly ahead you can run your ogers at him by his base and try to engage , hit and run style and weaken delay his path to 6, essentially anything to divert him and if you’ve been scouting properly all game you will be able to anticipate if you need a gt or 2….  I try to stay away from ct’s cuz that can really slow your offense for a little.


The slow scouter strat -
This is probably the hardest strat to execute but you hide raxes under or above 2. You can defend 6 with 4-5 GTs only if you have good peon uc and let almost no peons die. While you’re about to cat 2 or back door his line with lvl 1 grunts. Fun if you like a challenge or you’re playing a shitty player.


Yeah, basically you have to keep making reads and chisel away at him or just survive until late game if he’s solid. Expand your arsenal of counters, your execution will be flawed at 1st but eventually more things will start to click and make sense. Have fun with it you have nothing to lose since you’re the under dog. Oddly 12 is usually the 1 playing like a pussy rush luster.


--- I would bet on TK, especially if he's active. Swift just loves backing his 2 man war2 fan club. Can I be your war2 lacky?
What are the requirements?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 02:33:00 AM by Paper_Boy »

Offline I hate naggers

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2016, 03:17:32 AM »
is there someone willing to mini-bet on tk? I want to bet 5$ on yamon!! to me, it was clear that yamon is gooder, but since opinions are divided and this IS a hyped bo15....

Offline ~ToRa~

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2016, 04:40:57 AM »
@paperboy I love the details. Ill need to reread that thanks
war2 > war3

Offline Sentinel1

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2016, 05:06:14 AM »
funny that people can admit 6 is terrible and come up with huge posts on how to maybe come close to breaking even with a player of your level (if youre lucky), yet still defend gow old as perfect and great and refuse to play a slightly fixed version of it.

Offline GreenPlastic

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2016, 02:34:22 PM »
I don't think that people defend it as being perfect in the sense that it is actually balanced.  It is a great map because of the unbalanced gameplay imo.  If you play a map with no built in imbalances, generally the better player is going to win and the strategy starts to become symmetrical across the map.  Think gow bne/f for example.  Every spot can be dualed and every spot can rush.  There aren't very many weaknesses early game for any base.  In old ef, sometimes skill can be hidden based on spots and their inherent weaknesses.  We already have people who refuse to play people better than they are on w2.  Imagine how much less they'd play if it was 100% clear who was better.  Old/ef allows that information to be a bit muddy.  Take this tk vs yamon challenge for example.  Because of the map, it is not likely that one will sweep the other and there is a general difference in opinion who is better.  If they both play at the top of their current skill level, yamon should be a heavy favorite to win this.  That doesn't mean that he will win every game though.  Going like 10-5 in the series will only serve to leave the loser hope that he is almost equal in skill and allow the debate to continue. 

There also is nothing better than winning from 6/8 vs any other spot.  So victories from those spots feel like they count for more even though after a few days no one will care because they'll only look at the overall record which doesn't account for any of that.  All that to say, a slight unbalancing such as old/ef keeps players coming back to play it just like blackjack keeps people coming back in Vegas.  People just know that if things break their way, they'll win.

Offline Sentinel1

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2016, 02:44:43 PM »
Yeah I'm a big fan of the better player winning barring mistakes or the other player playing exceptionally so I dont agree with you on a fundamental level.

Particularly when so many people use 6 as a built-in excuse when they lose.  I'm not advocating for complete map symmetry.  I just don't understand why people are so against very minor changes to 6/8 to make them closer to the other bases. 

Offline I hate naggers

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2016, 02:47:10 PM »
All that to say, a slight unbalancing such as old/ef keeps players coming back to play
but it shouldn't be a shitty unbalancing (plain old worse spot), rather something to promote diversity. difference in mine capacity, amount of buildings it takes to wall, amount of space within the spot, accessibility to wood, proneness to towering or chopouts...

Offline Sentinel1

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2016, 02:52:46 PM »
but it shouldn't be a shitty unbalancing (plain old worse spot), rather something to promote diversity. difference in mine capacity, amount of buildings it takes to wall, amount of space within the spot, accessibility to wood, proneness to towering or chopouts...

yeah I completely agree.

Offline GreenPlastic

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2016, 02:58:43 PM »
I'm looking at it from the point of view of the newer player and how many times they'd be willing to play something they can't win at.  They are more likely to learn the map and how to get better if they get a win here and there.  I'm sure there are other ways to unbalance maps but this one just happened to fall into the sweet spot of being a blizzard original and having survived over time.

Offline ~ToRa~

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2016, 09:07:29 AM »
Tk what was the final score?
war2 > war3

Offline Yamon

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2016, 09:27:43 AM »
Tk what was the final score?
yamon 12 tk 2

Offline tk[as]

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2016, 10:55:52 AM »
I was wrong. Ggs. Time to suck less in life than in war2; ).

Offline O4L

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Re: How to kill 12/2 from 6 in a 1v1 on garden of war ef
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2016, 12:46:33 PM »