There was a time...

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

Lol Lance explain to me how I can make precision movements in PBall which is always played on Fastest? I have clocked myself with the fastest unit a peon/peasant which in PBall has 9 range and requires you to click every unit you kill. I can kill 120-150 or so grunts in 60 seconds with a peasant. I'm not talking about strategy or game play mechanics now I'm talking total unit control since you brought it up. PBall you need to have extremely quick reactions clicking on their men and clicking on their men when setting traps or baiting with footmen in front. PBall is all about unit control, not the same as in GOW, but the reactions of the units is the same. NO ONE has EVER played PBall on EF and no one would because it makes it silly you can predict and see everything they are going to do and have plenty of time to react with fireballs or a counter. I can control my units just fine on fastest and so could any PBaller there is a difference in Lat from single to multi in fastest that's true but the units are still easily controlled if you know how.

[Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)]

I bet Pball would be better on EF than F, actually.

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

I have tried PBall on EF different times for a joke and it is virtually unplayable. Also most PBallers won't play games in lag because it ruins most of the skill of it. Rushes and quick ambushes and attacks are a big part of PBall and just reacting in a quick manner. When you slow that down with the speed or bad lag it just makes it very boring and far less skill involved. If you are going for a mage rush(rushing footmen ahead of a mage then fireballing) they are going to see as your rush slowly advances and can much easier place perfect fireballs and rip you apart. The same is true for any unit confrontation in a PBall game on slow speed everyone has so much time to click each others range. It ruins a lot of the offense of PBall because of slow it is all moving. It really just ruins the fun and strategy of it lol.

[Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)]

So the strategy in pball comes from not being able to react and strategize but instead the game speed moving so fast that you can't respond in time.  And if you could respond and counter then it wouldn't work.  Cool

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

Not what I said at all. The unit control in PBall has to do with not being able to react yes. There are many factors to that though, being flanked on the side in a total surprise and not having much time to react. Being attacked in two places by two different waves of units. Sending in 1 wave of units and when they kill that one, ambushing with a 2nd group in a surprise. Putting a unit hidden in a side tunnel and popping out once a front scout notices and it still moving. Also besides them not having time to react most of the kills in PBall are from footmen baiting. By putting footmen in front of ranged units their AI will auto attack the footmen and you can target their range. The strategies of PBall are more complex than just unit control example:  flanking, playing defensive, attacking on multiple fronts, mage rushes, retreat to small areas. The game play is fast paced though and you kill by ambushing, baiting their range with footmen in front of your range, and being faster and smarter playing than your opponent.

[tk[as]]

All you have to do to end this discussion is ask someone who is extremely good at both fastest and even faster speeds and ask them which one takes more overall skill and understanding of the game. Joe, swift, and viruz are a few people who would be able to and have answered that question. They all agree EF takes more skill and knowledge of the game... I myself have played quite a few fastest games and if I start playing pretty much any fastest map back to back, it doesn't take too many games before I'm at least competiting or playing better than the people who play that speed/map regularly.

[{Lance}]

Lol Lance explain to me how I can make precision movements in PBall which is always played on Fastest?

Simple.  It's just an illusion, you think you're doing things as fast as are possible and it makes you think that it's your skill, but it really isnt.  Just because the units move faster doesnt mean they are doing things as quickly/efficiently as they could be   It's a solid fact that network latency effects the game's latency.  That isnt debatable.  What is debatable is that you misconstrued this latency as some sort of skill.  Just because you can kill X amount of units in a hurry doesnt mean more units could have been killed at a slower speed.  The fact is that the ONLY speeds that are near local latency are the "faster" and below speeds.  EF isnt even at local speed but the difference between EF and F is FAAAAR greater than the difference between Faster and EF.  The difference between Faster and EF is almost not even noticeable (but to me it is,  to you it wouldnt be from the sounds of things).

See, the slower things are, the more strategy comes into play as you said yourself, no one would play PBall on a slower speed because it becomes to "predictable".  This simply translates to "It becomes to difficult" because it's at that point that actual skill would come into play.  The slower things are,  the better you have to be at the game itself in ALL aspects,  not just 1 or 2 like in PBall.

Here is an interesting scenerio.  Take someone like myself who has NEVER played a single PBall game and then pit them against you and set the speed at Fastest.  Who's likely to win?  You because you have the advantage of "time" having played it for so long.  Ok,  so now lets reverse it and take "time" away from you.  Let's play PBall on FAST or Slow.  This removes the time element and brings into play actual game skill.  I'd be willing to bet that I would fair FAR better on a slower speed and possibly even win simply because my skill with war2 itself is far greater.  Now try the same scenario with a PBall player and a real map like Pos or GOW.  No matter WHAT game speed you set it at,  they would get completely and utterly destroyed, it wouldnt even be close.  Why?  Because "time" isnt a skill.  It's time and nothing more.

[tk[as]]

Were not even playing the game at its peak precision on EF .. I remember doing the tests on voovly server and it was amazing the reaction time of the units. I didn't even realize how slow reaction time is on server.war.RU until I tried voobly server. Its a damn shame we can't have that type of reaction time on our server

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

No it doesn't become to too easy. It becomes a luck fest. I could still beat anyone on an EF in a game of PBall, in fact I'll do it right now if anyone wants. There is no illusion to what I am explaining. Controlling units is very different person to person in PBall the top players can control their units at a very high level, whatever ceiling there would be for unit control they are going to be at the top of that. It is not that more strategy comes into play at all, it is like I said about EF it just makes the game different but for PBall definitely not in a good way. It makes it so any strategy that is realistic and usable just becomes a joke, so it is literally whoever is better at clicking really slow moving shit. PBall is more of an action game the speed plays into the strategies and game play. You don't slow down a first person shooter game and you don't slow down PBall lol. I would still be skilled EF PBall it would just be boring as hell, far more predictable, and there would be far less viable strategies available.

[tk[as]]

Also I agree with blid. P ball would be better on EF. Much more strategic and precise.

But in the end, most custom games are about as much war2 as a game of h.o.r.s.e. is to basketball

[{Lance}]

And therein lies the difference you view "time" as a skill where as most of us who have played war2 think that is utter non-sense

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

It's actually not even a realistic question or statement PBall could be better on EF. PBall is boring and literally a shadow of itself on EF. Ask any PBaller if they have or would play EF they would take it as a joke. The speed is part of the game and affects the strategies. BNEs are totally different because they involve buildings. EF on both games affects game play, it does the opposite of BNE maps in PBall though. It creates less usable strategies vs more.

[tk[as]]

Careful smeagol .. sly made the same claim about a year ago. I took him up on his offer. He played a map called DK2 almost exclusively. I said let me download it, let me play for a day and we will do bo5. I learned the map in that day then beat him on his own map speed bo5

[{Lance}]

But in the end, most custom games are about as much war2 as a game of h.o.r.s.e. is to basketball

^---- What he said lol thats a cool analogy haha.

[xXxSmeagolxXx]

Lol Tk any realistic 1v1s in PBall would be done on fastest. Doesn't scare me at all though playing you on EF, if you wanted to beat me other than a novelty though you'd have to play me fastest but yes I'll play EF. Sly is literally one of the biggest jokes I've ever met on Warcraft 2. In the first year or 2 I knew him I was undefeated vs him in all PBalls. Also 45 Man, 80 Man, Team War 2, PBall X are far better maps than dk lol. He finally ended up with 5 wins total we played lots of games probably something like 100-5 lol. He is a cocky idiot as well who sucks dick at all Warcraft 2 maps and was a stupid bitch. I've beaten many PBallers 1v1 over the years all the top PBallers at one time or another: Murd0ck, Xcal(AKA: Fallen_Xcalibur), Cheaterhood, Real{hR}, Cs-Kirby, $Killa$Lancelot on and on. I have the best 1v1 record vs PBallers of anyone probably. I also have the best tournament record(in recent years) at 14-7 in 8-13 person tournaments with the next closest player being Xcal with 2 wins... lol bring it on =D .