Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Strategy & Replays => Topic started by: Pandaprewmaster325 on August 15, 2024, 06:15:37 AM
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Hello people , previously I have proposed a rebalance of the orcs making them head more towards melee units and brute strength more than anything else I didn't get much feedback on the orc rebalance as such I would like to receive some even if only hypothetically.
So lets get started with humans first just as we asked before what do humans excel at? Well unlike the orcs who are almost always portrayed as these huge muscular warriors with axes human portrayal is somewhat diverse from human mages to the iconic footmen in steel armor , humans are characterized by being more intelligent than orcs and their armies more organized (footmen in wc3 were stated to fight in formations nothing the like of was mentioned for orcs) so with that in mind lets begin.
Humans:
Peasant: +1 attack , at dire times like the second war everyone is expected to defend humanity peasants are no exception.
Footman: +2 armor , I think you have seen this coming I foreshadowed it in the previous post
Archer: an attack speed reduction , while no numbers are given currently what I envision is allowing archers to fire 3 arrows while trolls fire 2 axes something akin to an arrow and a half per axe
Ranger: +1 armor , the only ranged unit to have some sort of armor effectiveness is yet to be determined , +1 movement speed , elves are believed to be more agile than trolls this and the attack speed should make excellent portrayal of this.
Knight: +1 armor
Paladin: +1 armor , double the mana regeneration , the paladins are an interesting unit as they take the role of supporting other units by healing with the only offensive ability being exorcism that only works against undead as such a paladin mana pool may be torn with these 2 costly mana spells this mana regeneration increase would help paladins cast their spells more often than ogre magi
Ballista: +10 attack , while catapults have area of effect damage a balliasta will be more effective against single targets , if possible ballista attack speed would be improved by basically making the "loading" for the shot take shorter time
Flying machine: +2 armor , focusing on survivability rather than effectiveness the gnomish flying machine is better protected than the goblin zepplin that offers a better line of sight
Demo squad: +2 armor and +5 health: this allows demo squads a higher chance of success compared to goblin sappers whom deal 10 more damage
Mage: +2 range , while the necromantic powers of the death knights do more harm the arcane powers of mages have better reach and effective range
Edit note: previously was to be +1 range but mages have 2 range instead of 3 so to give them range advantage over death knights they would get +2 range
Gryphon riders: +1 speed , +1 sight , +1 armor , this allows gryphons to be more maneuverable than dragons
With this the alliance land armies offer a supporting role for melee units having them with their high armor holding the line while the faster attacking archers and mages do the damage overall the humans would have mediocre melee units an excellent ranged unit and an ever stronger spellcasters now lets head to the navy
Tankers again need no changes
Elven destroyer: +1 sight +6 attack per attack upgrade
Transport ship: +2 carry capacity
Human battleship : +1 speed
Gnomish submarine: +5 armor
The alliance navy would be faster to create than the durable orcish navy this allows humans an advantage over water control.
Upgrades/spells:
Archer attack upgrade: reduced cost from 300 gold and wood to 200 each
Archer attack upgrade 2: reduced gold cost from 900 to 600 , wood from 500 to 300
Heal: 3 mana per 1 HP this would mean for 30 mana it heals 10 health paladins should exit a barracks with around 90 mana allowing an instant 30 health restoration , research time decreased by 10 seconds
Exorcism: research time reduced by 10 seconds
Flame shield: -100 gold cost , will have longer cast range if possible to allow mages to cast it earlier , will last 10 seconds longer
Polymorph: -10 mana cost , to allow earlier casting time
This concludes it for the rebalancing mod it only exists as this post and the orc rebalance post some things might be changed somethings may be reversed if found too strong the human faction or the alliance would be more pushed towards elven archers and spell casters unlike orcs who could rely solely on melee units and should (theoretically) do well this is a bit more in line with the lore of how orcs aren't very organized savages who are born with warrior physique and would need little training to be effective meanwhile humans and their allies would require more coordination and organization to be effective unable to approach things with raw strength and having to do so in a more methodical approach let me hear or (see) your thoughts down in da comments.
Additional stuff:
-farms make 5 food instead of 4
Town halls give 10 food instead of 1
Grunts cost 675 gold
Ogres: cost 875 gold
Training speed stuff:
Alliance melee units would cost less gold but take more time to train
Footmen: +5 seconds training time
Knights: +5 seconds training time
Stuff that may or may not be implemented:
Gold cost changes:
1- peasants/peons: cost 100 gold
2-Footmen: 300 gold
3-Grunts: 375 gold
4-archers/trolls: 250 gold 50 wood
5-Knights: 600 gold 125 wood
6-Ogres: 675 gold 100 wood
7-Ballistas/catapults: 700 gold (still costs same wood cost)
8-flying machine/goblin zepplin: 400 gold , same wood cost
9-goblin sappers/dwarf demo squad: 500 gold , same wood cost
10-death knights/mages: 900 gold
11-gryphons/dragons: 2000 gold
This is a change of cost as to allow a bit more forgiving economy as it stands wc2 economy holds a tight grip around player freedom I may be the only one to see that wc2 gold costs for land units sucks or doesn't make much sense (seriously why would you pay 400 gold for some dude to carry some wood).
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I don't know what blizzard was thinking At the time of making fireball it is awful compared to death coil no I don't think its the damage being bad or the mana cost its purely because death coil is 100% accurate guarantee to damage the enemy , meanwhile fireball requires careful aiming and add on that friendly fire which makes it even more impractical when wanting to support the melee troops with mages LIKE BLIZZARD HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE HOW AWFUL THIS IS.
I think a good way to make this spell useful is simply making it not harm friendly troops it still has its unique quirk of requiring more aiming at the enemy but that I believe makes it satisfying to use fireballs just no harming friendly forces and Im sure this spell would be useable.
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you could be surprised but coil is also AOE spell
if you cast it on empty place it can whiff and missed but it anyways SPEND mana on missed cast
it can hp drain in 5x5 aoe around cast place.
this is important - dk do NOT heal 50 hp, they heal only exact hp that was on units that got damaged.
50 damage (and dk heal) is just limit
you can shot up to 25+9 coils in one cast, if in 5x5 area there is 25 land units and can also be 9 air like dragons.
if they all have 1 hp, they all die and dk can get those 36 hp.
so about fireball it have 40 dmg, that means direct shot of explosion is from 20 to 40 hp and splash damage is always 1/4 so 10, then splash damage around is from 5 to 10.
after it flies to cast target location, its speed becomes exactly 1/2 from what it was, and it starting speed depends on distance between mage and target location.
after that it makes explosions every 8 game ticks and disappears on 40th tick, which is exactly 5 explosions.
(dragon or gryphon disappear after 25 ticks which is 3 expo)
each explosion makes damage on direct hit (20-40) and splash on 8 units around direct hit (5-10)
so this is very very VERY random yes.
potentially firebal is way stronger than coil, if you acurately hit line of units you can potentially do 200-300 damage to group of units, where some weak units like archers or peons is 70-80% guaranteed to die.
while coil only have 50 hardcoded damage and there is no way to go beyond that (ofc this also heals dk but...)
so there is no problem in spell itself actually but how to use it, you cannot find enemy units convenientely standing in good line like this often, more often it can be when they are moving around but its requires high skill in aiming it.
other thing is that blizzard is way more stronger so usage of fireball becames obsolete.
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you could be surprised but coil is also AOE spell
if you cast it on empty place it can whiff and missed but it anyways SPEND mana on missed cast
it can hp drain in 5x5 aoe around cast place.
this is important - dk do NOT heal 50 hp, they heal only exact hp that was on units that got damaged.
50 damage (and dk heal) is just limit
you can shot up to 25+9 coils in one cast, if in 5x5 area there is 25 land units and can also be 9 air like dragons.
if they all have 1 hp, they all die and dk can get those 36 hp.
so about fireball it have 40 dmg, that means direct shot of explosion is from 20 to 40 hp and splash damage is always 1/4 so 10, then splash damage around is from 5 to 10.
after it flies to cast target location, its speed becomes exactly 1/2 from what it was, and it starting speed depends on distance between mage and target location.
after that it makes explosions every 8 game ticks and disappears on 40th tick, which is exactly 5 explosions.
(dragon or gryphon disappear after 25 ticks which is 3 expo)
each explosion makes damage on direct hit (20-40) and splash on 8 units around direct hit (5-10)
so this is very very VERY random yes.
potentially firebal is way stronger than coil, if you acurately hit line of units you can potentially do 200-300 damage to group of units, where some weak units like archers or peons is 70-80% guaranteed to die.
while coil only have 50 hardcoded damage and there is no way to go beyond that (ofc this also heals dk but...)
so there is no problem in spell itself actually but how to use it, you cannot find enemy units convenientely standing in good line like this often, more often it can be when they are moving around but its requires high skill in aiming it.
other thing is that blizzard is way more stronger so usage of fireball becames obsolete.
Yeah I knew about coil aoe damage spread its ok now I suspected that the healing for DK is based on how much damage it deals but I wasn't 100% sure if that's the case thx for confirming that.
And while fireball has much better damage overall it requires more skill which in practice makes coil better as you simply direct the coil at the enemy and thats it it doesn't even have to be on them just near them meanwhile fireball isn't always optimal to use as you stated and blizzard well you won't be using blizzard against moving targets unless you lure them into the blizzard the problem is coil doesn't punish you for using it in battle near your troops fireball does that and while 50 dmg isn't much its guaranteed damage with no consequences for your troops I don't think anyone would trade safe damage dealing +heal to friendly fire dealing thing that requires some skill when u can just spend that mana on an easier spell to use that is blizzard.
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So I heard that the carry capacity for trans ships is hardcoded which causes big problem to the change for ze human trans ships something akin to an identity crisis heh , now if thats impossible to change well that would mean a new change for the trans ships I dunno what to come up with now but I would make sure to post it once I get a good idea of what I want to do with the trans ships anyone interested in this mod stay tuned AND stay hard.
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A unique interaction for humans is demo squads die instantly when invisibility is casted on them while its unique interaction but its honestly more of a minus for humans than plus honestly humans simply lack any sort of buff for their units orcs get attack damage increase , invulnerable buff , movement speed buff while humans only get healing which is garbage and invisibility that takes up 200 mana without enhancing a unit stats basically humans get no buffs for their stats using magic I don't know why blizzard thought its a goos idea but my theory is they gave humans health restoration and gave orcs anything but health restoration but problem is the health restoration spell is so bad and ineffective.
Goblin sappers can get hasted and orcs can do some shenanigans with that sadly since invisibility kills demo squad humans don't get to do cool stuff with them if THIS isn't some hardcoded BS and is changeable then Im considering adding that into the list of changes for humans , its implications sound really good for humans giving them another tool to harass economy other than blizzard or even knock out forts LOL I could imagine strats being built around invisible demo squads something like human fast castle onto 2 gnomish inventors and a mage tower.
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fun fact, goblins and dwarfs have a little different movement animations
because of that haste spell working better on dwarfs
you can test, without buff they move same speed
but with haste dwarfs are faster that goblins
if you want real numbers then
haste makes goblins move 2 frames faster
but dwarfs will move 4 frames faster
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fun fact, goblins and dwarfs have a little different movement animations
because of that haste spell working better on dwarfs
you can test, without buff they move same speed
but with haste dwarfs are faster that goblins
if you want real numbers then
haste makes goblins move 2 frames faster
but dwarfs will move 4 frames faster
Well that's new news this doesn't matter in 1v1 tho which matters more than team games in my opinion
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Ok so after playing this game for a while I got to see a lvl3 grunt clapping a lvl7 paladin why? BLOODLUST , seriously BLIZZARD? HOW THE HECK DO YOU NOT NOTICE HOW BROKEN BLOODLUST IS? If a grunt a tier 1 unit with lvl3 can beat the crap out of a unit that needs a unique building then needs another unique building to unlock it then you pay 2000 gold for upgrading paladins and heal and your paladins still gets clapped pretty hard THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS MAN WHAT'S EVEN MORE FRUSTRATING IS BLIZZARD DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO PATCH THE GAME LIKE 10, ANNIVERSARY OR SOMETHING , you aren't getting rewarded adequately for playing humans while orcs with the least effort can still clap you , listen im an orc fanboy but this is beyond ridiculous I know people came by and said that and that about BLOODLUST but no effort was made to nerf this spell no matter what you do if you don't buff humans they will still suck its by design , "but demo teams-" shut up demo teams require accurate timing to kill the most out of ogre magi u don't want to use them on the flanks of an ogre magi group where fewer magi go no the center is the right place but how possible that is? I can't wait to get my hands on a filthy pc copy of this game to fix the goddamn trash balance blizzard left but you know what im taking an RTS warcraft title over any RPG warcraft title anytime in the year damn blizzard get back to the roots of warcraft RTS games...
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lol wtf
no one will use blood on grunt
why, if you have ogres
if you must have to use grunt vs paladin then something is very fucked up going on in your game (like maybe no lumber for ogres ?)
so the main problem with blood is that blizzard fucked up calculation, it should have been making exactly x2 damage
but they remove armor after doubling, not before.
this makes the armor itself and armor upgrades is way more weakier agains blood.
because of that it can become from x1.5 to x3 damage.
only on units with 0 armor like peons it have normal honest x2 as intended
main power of blood is not actually because killing units, there is many other stuff that can kill enemy units.
but there is very very little things that can kill buildings.
i mean kill buildings FAST.
lvl 1 ogre have 8 str damage and 4 pierce
he deals from 6 to 12 dmg on 0 armor unit
and 12 - 24 with blood
but on building str damage is blocked
building have 20 armor
so no matter blood or not, 8 or 16 they blocked by 20
that means there is stay only 2-4 damage or 4-8 with blood
but lvl 3 ogre with 2 upgrades on damage
will have 12 str damage
and with blood it will be 24, that means it outdamage even buildings armor
20 - 24 = 4 more overdamage
means 6-12 damage on buildings with blood, instead of default 4-8 (which is basically x3 instead of x2)
difference prob seems not very big, but ogres attack speed is fast
with blood they need 7-8 less hits in average to kill guard tower for example
this is why its very VERY important to do 2 damage upgrades for ogres
they can crack open closed bases sometimes even before player can understand what happens and before peons can run here to even start repair
ogres and peons have same attack animation speed, that means you need 2 peons to outrepair blood ogres lvl 1 damages, but for lvl 3 ogres you need 3 peons per ogre, sometimes you simply not have enough space for peons to stand and repair, so ogres will crack open base no matter if you repair or not.
but ok this is buildings, if you remember units then lets check vs knight (or other ogre)
so they on lvl 1, have 4 armor, they block it from 8
8-4=4 + 4(pierce) = 4-8 damage
and witch blood
16-4=12 + 8 = 10-20 damage, so directly x2.5 already
now check lvl5 vs lvl5
12 dmg - 8 armor = 4 + 4 = 4-8 damage normal
but with blood
24 - 8 = 16 + 8 = 12 - 24 damage
which is x3, they will need 10 less hits in average to kill knight
this is why important to upgrade damage for ogres
remember knight still hits ogre for 4-8, he need 10 more attacks in average to kill
if you add heal here, you can add +1 attack because heal animation is just like attack animation.
so you can heal 40 hp from full mana (seems like 42 but blizzard set hardcoded limit of 40 per 1 heal cast)
so now what, if you lucky and ogre roll small damage, like 12 he still need only 4 hits, and if he roll high like 24, actually even 20 enough, it takes just 2
so what that means, ogre need 5 attack in average to kill knight, knight need like 16
knights spend +1 attack for heal, but its not +1 BUT +2 because while they heal ogres still hits them, and at this time they could have been spending time atacking ogre, so that means knight use +2 to add in average +3 for ogres
now knight have like 18, while ogre still have like 8
so, what if we have more knights, and they all heal
20-11, 22-14, 24-17, 26-20, 28-23, 30-26, 32-29, 34-31, 36-34, 38-37, 40-40, 42-43
so that shows that you need at least 14 (in average, really you need more) knights to outheal one ogre in fight vs same amount of ogres
also remember they all heal from full mana, while blood costs only 50
and on the duration of blood ogre can make 40 attacks.
oh yea you see how wonderful its number 40 again, in my previous calculation paladins was able outheal ogres exactly after 40 hits.
this is reason why blizzard maked heal exactly 6 mana, this is real balance you see.
the only thing is that its on average and in ideal fight and when all paladins heal perfectly on timings
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lol wtf
no one will use blood on grunt
why, if you have ogres
if you must have to use grunt vs paladin then something is very fucked up going on in your game (like maybe no lumber for ogres ?)
so the main problem with blood is that blizzard fucked up calculation, it should have been making exactly x2 damage
but they remove armor after doubling, not before.
this makes the armor itself and armor upgrades is way more weakier agains blood.
because of that it can become from x1.5 to x3 damage.
only on units with 0 armor like peons it have normal honest x2 as intended
main power of blood is not actually because killing units, there is many other stuff that can kill enemy units.
but there is very very little things that can kill buildings.
i mean kill buildings FAST.
lvl 1 ogre have 8 str damage and 4 pierce
he deals from 6 to 12 dmg on 0 armor unit
and 12 - 24 with blood
but on building str damage is blocked
building have 20 armor
so no matter blood or not, 8 or 16 they blocked by 20
that means there is stay only 2-4 damage or 4-8 with blood
but lvl 3 ogre with 2 upgrades on damage
will have 12 str damage
and with blood it will be 24, that means it outdamage even buildings armor
20 - 24 = 4 more overdamage
means 6-12 damage on buildings with blood, instead of default 4-8 (which is basically x3 instead of x2)
difference prob seems not very big, but ogres attack speed is fast
with blood they need 7-8 less hits in average to kill guard tower for example
this is why its very VERY important to do 2 damage upgrades for ogres
they can crack open closed bases sometimes even before player can understand what happens and before peons can run here to even start repair
ogres and peons have same attack animation speed, that means you need 2 peons to outrepair blood ogres lvl 1 damages, but for lvl 3 ogres you need 3 peons per ogre, sometimes you simply not have enough space for peons to stand and repair, so ogres will crack open base no matter if you repair or not.
but ok this is buildings, if you remember units then lets check vs knight (or other ogre)
so they on lvl 1, have 4 armor, they block it from 8
8-4=4 + 4(pierce) = 4-8 damage
and witch blood
16-4=12 + 8 = 10-20 damage, so directly x2.5 already
now check lvl5 vs lvl5
12 dmg - 8 armor = 4 + 4 = 4-8 damage normal
but with blood
24 - 8 = 16 + 8 = 12 - 24 damage
which is x3, they will need 10 less hits in average to kill knight
this is why important to upgrade damage for ogres
remember knight still hits ogre for 4-8, he need 10 more attacks in average to kill
if you add heal here, you can add +1 attack because heal animation is just like attack animation.
so you can heal 40 hp from full mana (seems like 42 but blizzard set hardcoded limit of 40 per 1 heal cast)
so now what, if you lucky and ogre roll small damage, like 12 he still need only 4 hits, and if he roll high like 24, actually even 20 enough, it takes just 2
so what that means, ogre need 5 attack in average to kill knight, knight need like 16
knights spend +1 attack for heal, but its not +1 BUT +2 because while they heal ogres still hits them, and at this time they could have been spending time atacking ogre, so that means knight use +2 to add in average +3 for ogres
now knight have like 18, while ogre still have like 8
so, what if we have more knights, and they all heal
20-11, 22-14, 24-17, 26-20, 28-23, 30-26, 32-29, 34-31, 36-34, 38-37, 40-40, 42-43
so that shows that you need at least 14 (in average, really you need more) knights to outheal one ogre in fight vs same amount of ogres
also remember they all heal from full mana, while blood costs only 50
and on the duration of blood ogre can make 40 attacks.
oh yea you see how wonderful its number 40 again, in my previous calculation paladins was able outheal ogres exactly after 40 hits.
this is reason why blizzard maked heal exactly 6 mana, this is real balance you see.
the only thing is that its on average and in ideal fight and when all paladins heal perfectly on timings
I just happened to encounter bloodlust grunt so I sent a paladin to see if he can take him lol he didn't which was surprising and annoying at the same time.
Now since bloodlust messed up with armor calculation shouldn't there be a way to fix this? No not using map editor but from the data itself.
It was 3 am when I wrote the post above was kinda sleepy lol.
The thing with ogres attacking faster is somewhat silly as in warcraft 3 high tier melee units have longer attack delay compared to warcraft 2 BUT since wc2 favors melee units over ranged (opposite of wc3) perhaps its fine? I get that they made heal 6 mana for reasons but in an actual game I doubt you would have full mana paladin add on this the fast reaction it needs isn't as easy to pull off since you can heal enemy units with mis clicks but as I said before humans aren't adequately rewarded for micro compared to orcs who can simply bloodlust and call it a day.
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did you saw triggers game mode?
there is also triggers editor prog
there is trigger that fix blood, makes exactly x2, just changes place of armor calc
you can set trigger in map and host in in triggers game mode
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did you saw triggers game mode?
there is also triggers editor prog
there is trigger that fix blood, makes exactly x2, just changes place of armor calc
you can set trigger in map and host in in triggers game mode
No sadly Im not playing on pc these months using only my phone having installed a ps1 emulator and gone through couple ps1 games wc2 came to mind having never tried it before but played its various remakes in wc3 I was like hey this is my chance to try out OG wc2 so I got the dark saga port there is no way to edit the game data as its ps1 data what I'm trying to say is there is no way for me to use map editor trigger editor whatever items the pc version has which is why I again and again stated in the posts that there is no current version of the mod being made until then I can only speculate and theorize about what to change but that's a glimmer of hope knowing BL against armor can be fixed.
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Im quite surprised that the human rebalance got almost 6000 views surpassing the orc rebalance post I hope the views are people actually viewing the post itself I think views are registered as those who click on a post.
I see that the human rebalance is more important than orc we all know why im not typing it and that makes me happy knowing people are more interested in human rebalancing more than orc rebalancing saying that as an orc and horde fanboy myself...
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You know if its possible I could also expand the mod reach to not only balance but also campaign honestly the tides of darkness campaigns could use some more fleshing out like make the town of hillsbrad look like an actual town same goes for stromgarde , stratholme , and the capital city
I did something similar to warcraft 3 after 7 months of continuous modding of that game (I have made a mod for warcraft 3 it needs some final touches and its ready to be on hive workshop) some ideas im thinking of is making some missions harder like orc mission 2 with a lot more human soldiers around , hillsbrad with some walls roads and some arranged building placement
For stromgarde if its possible to create custom units I could make some "elite guards" for stromgrade to make it a bit harder to take the city im thinking of yellow footmen since its possible to make units colored certain colors but not necessarily belong to a faction of that color (like gorefiend)
With larger attack waves maybe double the size of the usual attack waves , and a huge garrison of defenders for places like hillsbrad , tol barad , dun algaz , etc
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Also the beyond ze dark portal orc campaign is lacking in terms of heroes in missions I don't think anybody will say no to having grom hellscream in a couple more missions aside from gorefiend the orc heroes only show up in 1 or 2 missions , kargath could appear in the missions against kultiras , dentarg in the alterac mage mission , and gorefiend for the blackrock spire rescuing dragons mission
Also orc heroes suffer from lack of healing so having all heroes orc and human alike get regeneration is good idea , age of empires 2 had a similar issue with heroes until the expansion pack came around (the conquerors) giving heroes health regen made it much better experience allowing you to use heroes more freely without fear of losing them
Grom and kargath are the same so how about granting kargath some +10 health and 1 more attack while grom gets +2 attack , human heroes are very different from each other and their appearance again and again throughout the campaign made it a much better campaign than the orc one in my opinion the assault on shadowmoon fortress lacked heroes but its mentioned that khadgar and tyrlaoyon (I messed his name up I know) have searched the ruins of the fort so having both replacing a knight and the starting mage will suffice a lot of little changes could be made or additions to the campaigns that would make them a bit more interesting.
ALSO some more color variety would be cool playing as the warsong or shattered hand or even the bleeding hollow , and the bleeding hollow could get a bit harder they are supposed to be this legendary orcs in game they don't upgrade much I would say they gotta be on the same par as the warsong in terms of unit quality (the warsong gets lvl 4 units most of the time) however their attacks would rely more on grunts/trolls while the warsong would be more ogre/catapult oriented.
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Been thinking about holy vision compared to eye of kilrog it doesn't do that good its not because cost or area it reveals its cuz it just reveals the map for 3 seconds now on lower speeds its fine but on higher speeds yeah no lol I played on you can say faster speed not the fastest but the 2nd fastest if that makes sense it simply proven to be too short of a time to even glimpse at the enemy forces I believe 6 seconds or 9 seconds instead of 3 would make it a lot better just making sense out of the enemy formations would be enough 6-9 seconds is enough time for recognizing everything on the sceen.
Someone in this vast universe may be thinking exorcism needs a mana cost reduction I would say yeah but think about it if paladins gonna be able to get mana twice the speed of ogre magi they can quickly fill up their mana pools and blast the living horrors with blinding holy light they can do it more reliably too , so I think reducing it to 3 mana per 1 hp combined with the planned buff for the paladin like yeah no too OP I believe
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(...)but also campaign honestly the tides of darkness campaigns could use some more fleshing out like make the town of hillsbrad look like an actual town same goes for stromgarde , stratholme , and the capital city
(...)
Some campaign or even custom maps could look like actual towns, such as some missions i remember in warcraft 3, but the problem is that there're not enough sprites for such an environment. You just got lumber mills, farms, townhalls and that's it.
Yet, hopefully i can change this out with several new sprites into one of the next mods I'm making.
I can apply new building sprites now.
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Also the beyond ze dark portal orc campaign is lacking in terms of heroes in missions I don't think anybody will say no to having grom hellscream in a couple more missions aside from gorefiend the orc heroes only show up in 1 or 2 missions , kargath could appear in the missions against kultiras , dentarg in the alterac mage mission , and gorefiend for the blackrock spire rescuing dragons mission
Also orc heroes suffer from lack of healing so having all heroes orc and human alike get regeneration is good idea , age of empires 2 had a similar issue with heroes until the expansion pack came around (the conquerors) giving heroes health regen made it much better experience allowing you to use heroes more freely without fear of losing them
Grom and kargath are the same so how about granting kargath some +10 health and 1 more attack while grom gets +2 attack , human heroes are very different from each other and their appearance again and again throughout the campaign made it a much better campaign than the orc one in my opinion the assault on shadowmoon fortress lacked heroes but its mentioned that khadgar and tyrlaoyon (I messed his name up I know) have searched the ruins of the fort so having both replacing a knight and the starting mage will suffice a lot of little changes could be made or additions to the campaigns that would make them a bit more interesting.
ALSO some more color variety would be cool playing as the warsong or shattered hand or even the bleeding hollow , and the bleeding hollow could get a bit harder they are supposed to be this legendary orcs in game they don't upgrade much I would say they gotta be on the same par as the warsong in terms of unit quality (the warsong gets lvl 4 units most of the time) however their attacks would rely more on grunts/trolls while the warsong would be more ogre/catapult oriented.
So you referred to: "playing as the warsong or shattered hand or even the bleeding hollow ," which would mean to play other orc factions through the campaign... Like Warcraft 3 with the orcs.
I may be able to do something like this in a future mod. And yes, I've it planned to play other orc factions and also Bleeding Hollow Clan. Thanks for mentioning it.
" I would say yeah but think about it if paladins gonna be able to get mana twice the speed of ogre magi they can quickly fill up their mana pools and blast the living horrors with blinding holy light they can do it more reliably too "
Maybe @Mistral knows if paladin healing could be used as Holy light in Warcraft 3, where this spell damages the enemy instead of healing it.
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Yeah I simply got tired of playing black colored orcs for 12 missions straight I also thought about tides of darkness campaigns with other orcs instead of only blackrocks and blacktooth grin , playing as all orc clans and alliance nations is a nice change of color and pace for example you could play as kul tiras in the battle of crestfall or gilneas in the assault on grim batol just a lot of cool possibilities.
Yeah well holy light in wc3 is both healing and exorcism in one spell but in wc2 they are separate while the paladin uses the light for his spells at least thats what I remember from lore (I can barely recite anything from Warcraft lore XD) if healing can damage undead I think that will hurt exorcism cuz if I can do both with a spell costing 1000 gold why would I even bother with exorcism that costs 2000 gold?
Im quite glad you working on more mods so keep up the work man.
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thank you buddy, i appreciate it.
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Another thoughtful post today so I thought about some model editing what if we gonna give each hero a unique model ? Well here is what I came up with why am posting this here you ask? Cuz if it proves possible to edit models I would include that in the upcoming mod I will make inshallah
So for the orc heroes:
dentarg model would be an ogre with some blue runes across his body to make him resemble more of his portrait
grom hellscream would lack a 2nd shoulder pad to make him look like his up to date appearance now if I remember right he has a shoulder pad on his left shoulder in wc3
Kargath would be hmmm lets see now I have seen edited models but replacing one of this guy hands with his axe? Well that will be interesting to see
Teron gorefiend ...Well if you look closely he is the only hero in the game with unique appearance his hood covering his face looks different to a normal death knight its slightly smaller
Deathwing for this guy I think the most optimal thing would be just recoloring the whole of the dragon model to black
Human heroes:
Alleria would have a hood and a slightly visible blue rune covering a part of her face
Danath well I think just replacing the footman head with a head that looks like danath would do it may look awkward tho
Tyralyuon or whatever his name is I think there is 2 ways to go with this one either a normal knight with glowing eyes or replace the head with that of a one resembling tyralyuon I can't get his name right and don't even try to correct me on this
Khadgar is simple just slightly grey beard or the entirety of his beard is grey
Kurdian and skyree well the dwarf kurdian would have some blue runes on his cheeks maybe some blue runes across the gryphon skyree too that would do
And as a reminder to whoever is reading this I still haven't thought about a new bonus for the human transport ships.
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you mean edit sprites? yes its very easy you can change GRP files with progs you can find on en.war2.ru/downloads/ (http://en.war2.ru/downloads/)
and you can use code from my plugins on my github to load files from folder and change them in game on fly
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Another thoughtful post today so I thought about some model editing what if we gonna give each hero a unique model ? Well here is what I came up with why am posting this here you ask? Cuz if it proves possible to edit models I would include that in the upcoming mod I will make inshallah
So for the orc heroes:
dentarg model would be an ogre with some blue runes across his body to make him resemble more of his portrait
grom hellscream would lack a 2nd shoulder pad to make him look like his up to date appearance now if I remember right he has a shoulder pad on his left shoulder in wc3
Kargath would be hmmm lets see now I have seen edited models but replacing one of this guy hands with his axe? Well that will be interesting to see
Teron gorefiend ...Well if you look closely he is the only hero in the game with unique appearance his hood covering his face looks different to a normal death knight its slightly smaller
Deathwing for this guy I think the most optimal thing would be just recoloring the whole of the dragon model to black
Human heroes:
Alleria would have a hood and a slightly visible blue rune covering a part of her face
Danath well I think just replacing the footman head with a head that looks like danath would do it may look awkward tho
Tyralyuon or whatever his name is I think there is 2 ways to go with this one either a normal knight with glowing eyes or replace the head with that of a one resembling tyralyuon I can't get his name right and don't even try to correct me on this
Khadgar is simple just slightly grey beard or the entirety of his beard is grey
Kurdian and skyree well the dwarf kurdian would have some blue runes on his cheeks maybe some blue runes across the gryphon skyree too that would do
And as a reminder to whoever is reading this I still haven't thought about a new bonus for the human transport ships.
Most of these requests or ideas are already covered up within my mods.
You can check out either of the mods:
my Universal patch v11 (multiplayer) https://gamebanana.com/mods/507336 or
Universal patch v12 (single player) https://gamebanana.com/mods/514538
Danath has a unique fan-made sprite where he has uncovered bald head and you can even see his eyes... probably need 640x480 resolution or taking a screenshot to see better his eyes
Alleria has Ranger hood that also Ranger unit has in-game
Turalyon has yellow eyes and light-blue hammer sprite, made by Incos - community member. Same for Uther I think
Lothar has unique fan-made sprite with white head hair and beard
Deathwing has unique fan-made sprite with a 2x size dragon and black skin color. It looks very big.
Dentarg does not have an unique sprite, even though Incos - community member did a blue skin colored ogre sprite. But in these mods I set this sprite to be used for some Ogres & Ogre-magi.
Kurdran & khadgar don't have actual sprites that i could change nor find.
I have a zuljin green head hair sprite but didn't apply it. I had the same feeling for Lothar since this character have so little usage in just one campaign map and very little used for custom maps.
I have a custom Grunt sprite in the mods where the unit only has one eye and bald green head. But i did not use it for Grom or Kargath. Yet, I also use another fan-made sprite that looks like a Commander Grunt for some randomized grunts but not for these heroes.
I think that's it. But you can check them all by looking into these mods.
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you mean edit sprites? yes its very easy you can change GRP files with progs you can find on en.war2.ru/downloads/ ([url]http://en.war2.ru/downloads/[/url])
and you can use code from my plugins on my github to load files from folder and change them in game on fly
That's sounds good I will definitely take a look at these.
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Another thoughtful post today so I thought about some model editing what if we gonna give each hero a unique model ? Well here is what I came up with why am posting this here you ask? Cuz if it proves possible to edit models I would include that in the upcoming mod I will make inshallah
So for the orc heroes:
dentarg model would be an ogre with some blue runes across his body to make him resemble more of his portrait
grom hellscream would lack a 2nd shoulder pad to make him look like his up to date appearance now if I remember right he has a shoulder pad on his left shoulder in wc3
Kargath would be hmmm lets see now I have seen edited models but replacing one of this guy hands with his axe? Well that will be interesting to see
Teron gorefiend ...Well if you look closely he is the only hero in the game with unique appearance his hood covering his face looks different to a normal death knight its slightly smaller
Deathwing for this guy I think the most optimal thing would be just recoloring the whole of the dragon model to black
Human heroes:
Alleria would have a hood and a slightly visible blue rune covering a part of her face
Danath well I think just replacing the footman head with a head that looks like danath would do it may look awkward tho
Tyralyuon or whatever his name is I think there is 2 ways to go with this one either a normal knight with glowing eyes or replace the head with that of a one resembling tyralyuon I can't get his name right and don't even try to correct me on this
Khadgar is simple just slightly grey beard or the entirety of his beard is grey
Kurdian and skyree well the dwarf kurdian would have some blue runes on his cheeks maybe some blue runes across the gryphon skyree too that would do
And as a reminder to whoever is reading this I still haven't thought about a new bonus for the human transport ships.
Most of these requests or ideas are already covered up within my mods.
You can check out either of the mods:
my Universal patch v11 (multiplayer) https://gamebanana.com/mods/507336 or
Universal patch v12 (single player) https://gamebanana.com/mods/514538
Danath has a unique fan-made sprite where he has uncovered bald head and you can even see his eyes... probably need 640x480 resolution or taking a screenshot to see better his eyes
Alleria has Ranger hood that also Ranger unit has in-game
Turalyon has yellow eyes and light-blue hammer sprite, made by Incos - community member. Same for Uther I think
Lothar has unique fan-made sprite with white head hair and beard
Deathwing has unique fan-made sprite with a 2x size dragon and black skin color. It looks very big.
Dentarg does not have an unique sprite, even though Incos - community member did a blue skin colored ogre sprite. But in these mods I set this sprite to be used for some Ogres & Ogre-magi.
Kurdran & khadgar don't have actual sprites that i could change nor find.
I have a zuljin green head hair sprite but didn't apply it. I had the same feeling for Lothar since this character have so little usage in just one campaign map and very little used for custom maps.
I have a custom Grunt sprite in the mods where the unit only has one eye and bald green head. But i did not use it for Grom or Kargath. Yet, I also use another fan-made sprite that looks like a Commander Grunt for some randomized grunts but not for these heroes.
I think that's it. But you can check them all by looking into these mods.
Whoa I would like to see pics or videos that showcases these things not necessary if u can't do so your help and mistral aid is already appreciated mate.
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hero custom sprites so far
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hero custom sprites so far
Those look pretty fine the 2 grunt models are exactly what I thought about deathwing look pretty intimidating danath is like how I imagined he would look and overall I can say pretty good stuff a mixture of original ogre model combined with some blue of the model seen in the picture would work well for dentarg and I think thats its for orc heroes
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Well we got 10k views on this post are those all people really interested in the balance of this 29 years old soon to be 30 years old game? Hmm really makes you think what sort of legacy blizzard left behind in their early games compared to their miserable state now , contrary to what some might say I generally do think people who play this game do want to see some balance changes if posts discussing balance can reach 20k views well thats good to know I thought this game is dead I still have to come up with unique attribute to human transport ships not that I have been lately thinking much about it im sure I can cook up something it just needs sometime so stay tuned I guess.
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So having sat down and thought a bit about the transport ship buff for the humans what I came up with might not be the most exciting buff for the transport ships currently im split between these 2 ideas
1-they can see invisible units , I think this is the best of the 2 bonuses but it might prove too strong I mean you can just scan the seas with transport ships it also feels kinda of a meme why of all sailors in the alliance the transport ships crews can see turtles ?? Lol
2- halve the building time of transport ships this is more of the least interesting one it could theoretically prove very useful in a situation where you are racing with the enemy to get a gold mine on a unclaimed island
Now I also think the elf destroyer could get +7 attack increase instead of +6 per upgrade ending with +14 attack instead of 12 more like unlocking a third attack upgrade without having one +6 per upgrade felt a bit underwhelming I still have to do the math.
I would try both buffs for the transport ships (do one push up everytime I say transport ships) the one that works best would be the chosen one.
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It wouldn't hurt to make mages have auto slow now how could this be implemented you ask? Some sort of plugin same as healing spell getting an auto heal mod , but slow is more debuff than buff if you call healing a buff that is.
So auto slow would be auto cast on enemies that engage in "attack" behavior to make sure they don't just slow every enemy they see and waste their mana on lets say peons , so makiing them do this automatically would be a solid buff for humans , if auto cast healing and slow become a thing in wc2 they would make humans better in everyway possible!.
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So I have been thinking about what is possible to do with campaigns to expand on certain aspects add more factions into a mission that make sense from a lore POV.
What I think will be very fitting is having gilneas as a player in chapter 1 in both tides of darkness storyline campaigns.
This could range from simple 6 footmen you can rescue to death zones as orcs if you step too far lol.
The idea behind this is making gilneas appear in the actual story as its the only faction to never see usage in any mission.
Since lorewise gilneas is close to hillsbrad and southshore which is where "seas of blood" and "shores of lordaeorn" chapters take place it make lot of sense to have gilneas involved , but how?
Im gonna mainly discuss human missions here.
Im thinking about making mission 2 where u rescue the elves into more of a sneak mission so basically the orcs have too many defenses to attack head-on so you sneak around the prison meet with a couple gilnean soldiers and preach the prison from the back , simple idea but I think its quite entertaining it also helps sell the fact that the humans are the underdogs of this genocidal war and they can't yet attack horde controlled territory from the front resorting to sneak attacks and such tactics.
In chapter 2 "khaz modan" the bleeding hollow clan sees very little appearance only appearing in 1 mission , its weird since this clan is supposed to hold khaz modan region , same goes for the burning blade or dragon maw clans we see too little of them it feels like we are fighting only blackrocks all the time and it gets boring after a while also we have 7 orc clans why only use 1 or 2 most of the time?
Thus the bleeding hollow can make minor appearances in the tol barad defense/dun modr Siege and it can also appear in the dun algaz offensive or assault.
In mission 5 (tol barad) they could fill in empty sections of map they could guard some oil spots or a gold mine so basically we replace these stragglers who usually are quite annoying to look for and kill , instead we place those close to the its player base and replace it with other player units who aren't needed to be killed in order to win making winning way faster and smoother , for example there was this empty island in tol barad mission up north of the map I think it had a gold mine an empty one too so why not make it be occupied by bleeding hollow troops , same goes for mission 6 where bleeding hollow and burning blade forces would be spread around the map occupying gold mines and blocking player from accessing main pathways and such.
For orcs you could expand on the relationship between the horde and alterac at this point everybody knows the orange humans are traitors so I don't think we spoil anything if we make couple human soldiers rescueable units in chapter 3 (quel'thlas).
I think a lot can be done with the campaign missions in regards to faction representation and color variety for example player could play as red humans in dun algaz representing stromgarde is there any lore proof that stromgarde were the one to attack dun algaz? Nope but its quite fitting for them as you get knights in the mission they are mighty warriors and stromgarde are the best human warriors from the 7 kingdoms , also they are the main enemy in the orc khaz modan missions so that adds more reason to make player be red humans , AND the enemy color is black which means in turn red is unused.
Note: triggers in mission might be coded to apply "win" condition if all enemies are dead meaning its not enough to kill player 2 instead you have to kill all enemies.