HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced

[Szwagier]

You cant click  with palladin exo on haste dk cause he will run when he was when u click, So you need full control Micro while your opponent will Just macro

Anyway why non tier 1 player think orc=human??

[Lambchops]

Yeah. I have said for years when these discussion come up that the spells were concieved and balanced with "normal" speed being normal.

At slower speeds it becomes realistic to heal units mid-battle etc or make creative strategic use of other spells. Probably the blizz designers did a pretty good job of balancing them under those conditions, as they did a good job in general, but we will probably never really know because chances are nobody will ever bother getting to pro skill level at those speeds to test.

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??

[Szwagier]

Yeah. I have said for years when these discussion come up that the spells were concieved and balanced with "normal" speed being normal.

At slower speeds it becomes realistic to heal units mid-battle etc or make creative strategic use of other spells. Probably the blizz designers did a pretty good job of balancing them under those conditions, as they did a good job in general, but we will probably never really know because chances are nobody will ever bother getting to pro skill level at those speeds to test.

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??

Remember if u Would heal,  your enemy will do something else,

[O4L]

.... or NORMAL speed tourney anyone??

I actually remember hosting one of these with really short notice back in like 2012.
It was either eden_in_black or Meowingtons who won it.

[Winchester]

i personally rep my first mage tower like an altar of storms so i can research blizzard faster so by the time my first mage pops out of my hidden mage tower his ready to blizz immediately. ill also throw in a gryphon or two to roam around scattering ogres that are lusting, I generally get good value out of it before they decide to finally kill it.

[shesycompany]

isnt normal speed = to war3?

im almost sure its in the skill..a pro person would be ready.
its been proven by the great falkentyne

"Humans aren't an offensive race late-game, they're defensive. This puts a whole new spin on the game for me and I find it more enjoyable."-woofy

dam im pretty sure these dudes destroy alot of orcs

[Cel]

You can change the speed of the game all you want it wont change the numbers, You still have to spend twice the amount of gold to get the human equivalent of an orc's late game dks and twice the amount of ticks (game time).

You can repair your mage tower and make air yes, now how is that relevant? Cant an orc player do that too?

And again if you do that with an orc you have the exact same unit when it comes out except you have Coil which is the best nuke in the game because you can use it way more often and almost as soon as your dks come out (mages and dks spawn with 85 mana).

Oh and you also have the option to get whirlwind instead of d&d which is slightly weaker but faster to research if you research that you dont even have to rep your temple.
In some situations whirlwind actually is better than d&d if you use it on a gold mine it will stay way longer than d&d there thus preventing mining more efficiently. if the peons where pulled off the mine they will have to wait more before they can get in again oh and you can retreat your dk as soon as the whirlwind is casted.

Yes slowing the speed down will make targeting moving units easier and since slow / polymorph / heal are directly targeted spells it will make it easier for a human player to cast these and get more value out of them.
But the imbalances do not only rely on the impracticability of these mechanics, numbers just do not add up.
You simply do not get as much value out of your clicks even if you manage to perfectly use your spells.

Paladins will barely ever heal each other back to full life because heal is expensive and it will cost you a lot of actions to try healing them.
It takes 3 actions to select pick the heal and apply it will never get you the same value as 3 actions to select an ogre pick bloodlust and apply it.
Heal simply does not heal enough for it to be worth it.

More numbers:

Lets compare in terms of mana / value:
50 mana heal will really heal 8 hit points.
50 mana Bloodlust will increase your damages by 3 for a level 5 ogre, so instead of  4-8 damages he will do 12-24 damages if that ogre lands only 1 punch this is already more value than heal lol.
Even if you made bloodlust disappear after the first punch it would still be more worth it than heal from that perspective XD.

Exhorcism along with skeletons and flame shield must be one of the most situational spell there is. think about it you can use it only on 1 unit out of the 15 units orcs have if you have 1 orc opponent out of 2 it makes it even more awkward.

 

[Lambchops]

Despite any other advantages, the biggest advantage by far that lust has over heal, is that you can cast it before a battle then send and forget. Heal must be cast once a unit is damaged, which is often just before it dies. This particular advantage is very much related to game speed/microing, although I can definitely see cel's point about the mana costs.

Actually an equivalent "opposite" type spell for lust is something like unholy armor. Heal is not a good direct counter to lust at all, but more useful between battles.

Heal should be useful in pinches with front line units being healed by those behind, but in reality that situation tends to play a much bigger role in early game with grunts/footies.


It's not unreasonable to suspect that healing was originally intended for the cleric unit type, but was given to the paladin when they decided to can the cleric. I'm not sure how far through the game creation process that was. Perhaps they never quite tweaked it properly for pals.

[Winchester]

Im simply telling you how I play humans Cel. I play humans reguarly and Im not here to argue balance. In a previous thread months back you were against patching the spells to be more usable out of nostalgia other then gold costs and maybe lowering a point or two for heal, i can't remember if the heal suggestion was you or someone else, but you seemed against everything else other then costs.   warcraft 3 recently did it (and that game is now really old too) and as far as going to change which buildings make certain units such as spirit walkers and at what tier that building can be made (Tauren Totem changed to t2 instead of t3).  I catch incoming dks often with either a flying machine, gryphon (they can do this too of course but often wont because too committed to lust), or holy vision. eye of kilrogs sight is too poor to find incoming dks on a regular basis and is more useful for finding hidden things like expansions or hidden temples/raxes

And the air is relevant as humans because like i said, people trying to lust a group of ogres clumped together are more thrown off when all there ogres are running and scattering away from each other. Humans don't have lust so a dragon attacking them does not bother them as much since they would've just charged immedietely in instead of waiting to lust. Holy vision is extremely useful when attacking things like expansions on almost all maps as the reveal is so large that when you see ogres coming to defend, you can retreat with minimal or no damage at all while crippling your opponent.

I won't try to argue the usefulness of heal as it is incredibly poor when up against lust, however when up against a bunch of guard towers defending expansions it gets some ok value if your not using a mage to get rid of them. So i will pick it up since i build a church for holy vision anyway.

[Cel]

Do not get me wrong though.
I am not saying we have to change the balance of the game I am fine with the game how it is.
I am not against trying to balancing it either, but it is not that big of an issue for me, the imbalances are not fun breaking the way they are and the nostalgia factor is untouched.

It seems to me that from where we are the nostalgia factor is more important than the balance (especially since as I said there are strategies where the balance actually does not matter since not all the units/tech are affected).

All I am saying here is that the imbalances between the two races do not only come from practicability and speed.
That would be great but that is simply no backed up by the numbers it is a myth.

It is however true that the speed would help the targeting part for humans more than for orcs since humans have more targeted spells but even if you have perfect targeting facing an opponent that have equal skills you are still behind as a human against orcs.

I guess my point here also is that the imbalance are there even when humans are not involved, lust breaks the game and is a no-brainer it makes every strategy not involving lust less attractive.

Heal may need a buff it is true and to be honest and answer your question I do not think most people would remember it did not work like exhorcism in terms of targeting so I am not entirely against changing that either.
But that also seem much more complicated than just changing the mana costs.
I am not even sure we can do such a change but if  we could then I do not think I would be against it as long as we keep the sound effect and particle animation and icon of the heal intact.
Though the main problem with heal still is I think that it costs way too much mana to be worth getting in the first place.

At least heal does not break the balance within the human tech tree like lust does for orcs though, you still have to use flying machines and your brain, and every other strat is much more played as humans because you do not have that ridiculously overpowered no-brainer available.


To sum that point up:
balance is not just between races, it is also between the options you give to a player, if one of these options is too attractive you are also impacting the balance of the game and pushing the players down a path where they do not have to think as much.

That is why it is so fun to play humans because you basically cannot rely on lust to win which makes other strategies more interesting to try.


I may create a tournament one day with orcs where lust is disabled I can already tell you that we will see much more variety in the strategies used and way more zeppelins out mid game /  late game.

If you do not trust me try playing without lust as orcs and you will see how much more you have to prepare your attacks and how much more you have to use your brain to win.
Just like when you play as a human it becomes more thrilling and honestly more interesting.

This is why I always liked playing humans more the race is just a little bit more balanced in itself.

Though part of that is feelings not facts and I would completely accept that one may have a different opinion/tastes especially when it comes to  the value of brain usage in a game.


As for my balance post:
Yeah I made a post was balancing the game by doing the smallest changes possible to it to keep the nostalgia as intact as possible (so that players that comes back after 10 years wouldn't be able to tell the difference) trying to target exactly what is wrong about the balance in priority because that is my main concern when I see people suggesting to replace paladins heal with skeletons or haste or slow and exhorcism with death coil or unholy armor.
I think we can do better than that.

[shesycompany]

lol cel the thing about war2 is the weak hp! even lust 3x orges are still 90 hp they still gonna die...ur thinking about knights vs orges, they are other units.

i bet 1million bitcoins when they hit 0$ that ever mod that tried to be war2 on war3, the main complaint was "they die so fast!"

if ur the same skill level as ur opponent u shouldnt die to a brute force lust attack.

lets say they are attacking ur base trying to come in ...a couple of cats should kill them all with no dk help and hopefully ur harassing the map with mages to keep them from taking the map.

instead of thinking total destruction ..u make the battle go on and on and on till their lil orc mind snaps and they rage..or they starve out.

now get in there soldier..find a strat it works cheers!

Los Del Rio - La Macarena. [Version Original] - YouTube

[Cel]

ok so lets do more math I guess:

90 hit points right?

How many punches a lvl 5 ogre/knight has to do to kill a lvl 5 knight on average if he always does the average damages?
Listening to your argument it is like we are talking about 2 or 3 punches here lets look at the numbers shall we?

lets calculate:

The combat equation in war2:
((Base Damage - Armor) + Piercing Damage) = Total Damage

Minimal damages = Round(Total Damage / 2) * 1
Average damages =  Round(Total Damage / 2) * 1.5
Maximum damages =  Round(Total Damage / 2) * 2

Ok so a level 5 knight/ogre does 8 base damages and 4 piercing damages upgrades apply to the base damages so we have 12 basic damages and 4 piercing damages.
The armor of a knight/ogre is 4 + 4 with the defense upgrades = 8

((12 - 8 ) + 4 = 8
minimum damage = 4
average damage = 6
max damage = 8

How many punches before the target dies?
90 / 8 = 11.25 punches on average

With lust? Lust doubles both the piercing and base damages.

((24 - 8 ) + 8 = 24
minimum damage = 12
average damage = 18
maximum damage = 24

90 / 18 = 5 punches on average

Now say you have 50 mana on a paladin how likely are you to make a paladin win an engagement with a lusted ogre if you micro manage it and heal that paladin up ?

8 hp heal:
98 hp to kill the paladin how many punches?
98 / 18 = 5.4 aye about the same oops.

5 punches you can heal in between yes very doable it is just never going to be worth it, it just isn't even after the fight is done the value of these mana points is just not worth building that church and paying the upgrade you are better off spending that money anywhere else.

So lets do that.
What can humans do better than orcs like really better?
You are talking about using ballistas well guess what catapults are just straight better.
Towers are exactly the same for both races.
Deathknights are better/cheapier/faster to upgrade than mages. (I exposed the reasons before you can look that up)

The strategies you are talking about can be used by an orc player as well and will actually perform better.
The only reason humans play these strats and orcs barely ever play them is because the lust power-spike is a more reliable strategy to go for.

We are talking balance here there is nothing a human can do that an orc cannot do except there are a lot of things that orcs can do that humans absolutely cannot afford doing.

Conclusion: Nope the units do not have low enough HP for bloodlust not to have a hudge impact on the game.

[shesycompany]

theres only one thing to do..is run some test..but im telling ya skill is the #1 factor ill never compete with the top humans

[Warbux]

human an orcs are balanced on normal speed .. honestly they are even balanced on faster an thats how they allow faster on iron man.. now we need to bring back iron man

[tk[as]]

human and orc are unbalanced.. regardless of speed/resouces/map


./end thread.