Author Topic: The problem with old/ef  (Read 13742 times)

Offline Sentinel1

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The problem with old/ef
« on: June 15, 2016, 12:49:15 AM »
The main problem with old/ef GoW is that everyone builds exactly the same with little to no variation.  And when there's little variation in how people build, there is very little variation in how people attack each other.  I thought about this watching a game the other day where braviet was at s9 and someone else was at 11.  When 11's peon ran into s9, there's really only two spots braviet's hall can be, "middle" or "below" the gold mine.

Braviet's gold mine was in the middle, with his first farm creating two paths to block someone else from popping his peons below with a farm or tower.  11 blocked this with one wall, forcing braviet's peons to pop out below.  Now having played thousands of games, this is something braviet has no doubt encountered countless times.  Whereas someone like me hasn't yet figured out what's the optimal move now, braviet and most others have.  And with the slow ef speed making execution a non-issue, to combat what's happening is just academic for him.

This is one small example.  I watched Viruz play a series vs someone where he got 11 three games in a row.  Every game he built exactly the same, rax walling him in, smith behind rax popping grunts out, followed by a chop below the smith a bit later to pop a cat inside.  He won every game despite the fact that 95% of the gameplay was exactly the same. 

On gow bne there's a little more room for building differently which is a big factor, but I think just as big is the fact that at higher speed, execution comes more into play.  Things are a little more chaotic, especially if you're trying to break a dual while maintain things at home.  Things get a little messier and that makes games vary much more.

tldr: since everyone on old/ef builds the same, every higher level player has tons of practice knowing what to do in every situation because they've already encountered the exact scenario countless times before and equally importantly, does not need to be fast to do what they know needs to be done.

Offline shesycompany

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2016, 01:49:49 AM »
be humans, get some mages, research flame and burn their orges that should change it up a little.

ikr everyone is so fast with there hands :(

ef is still better unit control over f.  gowbne as a map is better to me than gow.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 01:59:45 AM by easycompany »

Offline Warchief Lightbringer-

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2016, 03:57:33 AM »
This is exactly what makes 1v1 boring as opposed to 2s, 3s or even 4s.... :) I mean to play players like jesk, ruz etc (not denying their skills) is an exercise in yawnfest/boredom.

I stopped caring about 1s years ago for some of the reasons you said. Too many people (including the good ones) have copied builds, or building placements.
Heck, just see some random guy play 9,5,11 and 4. The near exact same walling/placements. 12 is an exception this is one of the only viable builds available and is done by 99% of players and has been done since years ago (2 raxes/smith/farms under hall)
9,5,11 and 4 is just an occurence in RU....
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Offline Szwagier

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2016, 05:16:48 AM »
That s why we should play more another maps, since we are playing only gow PPL remember bulid, strats, etc. We know only too well this map
Few times I played vs viet with Humans, I can win with human in another map but in gow its impossible since spots play a big role


I prefer 1x1 games than team games. Why? Cause i can focus on myself. No need to watch my pard what is he doing or what he should doing.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 07:36:53 AM by Szwagier »
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Offline Igognito

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2016, 08:36:18 AM »
Hi all,
I'm pretty new in the  group here, and have noticed that 80% of the games are GoW EF.
It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your  builds and fixed strategies.

While that is great! And some of you have undeniable amazing skill in that map. War 2 is so much more than GoW! If we want the group to grow and have new skilled people we should be promoting other maps too!

That said, I think the good players should start making  some great replays of other maps and post on youtube!

I would also like to see some chop games (even if I suck on them) I have to admit is fun like hell if you get your city up! And more maps with those too. I've seen only two  different ones for now.

Also paintball games are fun! But I only had 2 games until now...

by using other maps, many of the new players will be much more challenging than when you play against them in GoW. That will make the game more interesting for all!

Cheers

Offline Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2016, 09:01:39 AM »
It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your  builds and fixed strategies.
The first part of that statement is true (people have memorized the map) but the second part is not.  They don't win because they're repeating builds and strategies, or else everyone would win, which is impossible.  Some people win more because they're better.  The winners wouldn't change much on other maps, even though the builds would.

The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat.  Things are more interesting in team games.
    

Offline Igognito

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2016, 12:04:02 PM »
It is true that most old players you have mastered that map and you are winning by just repeating your  builds and fixed strategies.
The first part of that statement is true (people have memorized the map) but the second part is not.  They don't win because they're repeating builds and strategies, or else everyone would win, which is impossible.  Some people win more because they're better.  The winners wouldn't change much on other maps, even though the builds would.

The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat.  Things are more interesting in team games.

You are answering your self! There is a clear repetition :-P. Some of the players are experienced enough to actually apply similar strategies to other maps too but when you take them out of GoW their fighting capacity drops drastically!
I have played a few games with some of the GoW EF players, and while on GoW the result is an easy victory for their side on other maps their chance of winning decreases drastically. This is obviously expected as they have specialized on GoW.

Often when I join a game, I state that I count as a 0.5 player (especially on Chop games) similarly in GoW. But on other maps such as PoS, Gold Mines, B2B, Gold separates... I give a good fight to most players.
The reason? Some GoW strategies simply don't work on other maps, and even lust in some maps has a decreased worth (for example Maze).

And yes this is part of the beauty of the game! War 2 is not only GoW. It is a lot of catching your opponent unsuspected and on GoW the existing players know how to react on almost everything! They know where their opponent will come from and what are the most efficient tactics. That simply decreases the creativity factor!

Do not take me wrong, I do not consider the GoW players doing something wrong. The reverse, they have actually mastered the map! I just agree with the initial post of Sentinel that the Group requires more variety! Or like Lightbringer said... 1s on GoW are boring and he only plays team games!

Offline Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2016, 12:20:19 PM »
Often when I join a game, I state that I count as a 0.5 player (especially on Chop games) similarly in GoW. But on other maps such as PoS, Gold Mines, B2B, Gold separates... I give a good fight to most players.
The reason? Some GoW strategies simply don't work on other maps, and even lust in some maps has a decreased worth (for example Maze).
i don't disagree about variety etc but the same players are good on pos, b2b, and other bne maps as on gow. 
    

Offline Szwagier

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2016, 12:48:22 PM »
In gow u got 60k gold in mine  in pos u got 40k so u cant play the same or making 30 peons like in gow
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Offline Warchief Lightbringer-

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2016, 03:16:45 AM »
The repetition does get tiring though, especially the most popular strategy of lightly rushing and then powering and popping in a cat.  Things are more interesting in team games.

+1...
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Offline mousEtopher

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 09:10:16 AM »
That s why we should play more another maps, since we are playing only gow PPL remember bulid, strats, etc. We know only too well this map

This is the best reply in this thread, would love to see lots of new maps being played on a regular basis. :)
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Offline Winchester

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 09:21:31 AM »
If playing a series, a loser picks next map is something i see on warcraft 3 often, it would be nice to see that on war2, though 80% of community would just pick gow when they lose haha.

Offline tk[as]

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 02:52:43 PM »
gow 1v1's among pro players is indeed extremely boring to watch. they've learned the safest strats (typically 7-8 grunts with cat, then race to lust) and whoever has the best unit control, timing, and resource management typically wins.. The only exception is with a few players like Its_hot_in_herr who play unconventionally. The people who try to make the games fun rather than focus strictly on winning. Those 1's can be really interesting.

In 2v2 though the games are completely different and gow is such a versatile map (especially for team games imo) that it's rare you see the same type of games back to back.

The problem isnt gow/ef, it's people who dont want to put in the time or effort to understand it and get good... but i'm all for playing other maps as well.

I just dont think there are any other maps as complex as gow played on even faster speed.

Offline Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2016, 03:24:15 PM »
gow 1v1's among pro players is indeed extremely boring to watch. they've learned the safest strats (typically 7-8 grunts with cat, then race to lust) and whoever has the best unit control, timing, and resource management typically wins.. The only exception is with a few players like Its_hot_in_herr who play unconventionally. The people who try to make the games fun rather than focus strictly on winning. Those 1's can be really interesting.
This is all very good and I agree, although you did leave out macro/map control as one of the most important elements of late game play
    

Offline Allstar

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Re: The problem with old/ef
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2016, 07:41:21 PM »
i'm not sure if its possible with the code or whatever but how about one week a month - the client forces only a random classic map (such as gseps) and random resource for that entire week - no others can be hosted. This would also force the customs community to mix with the old / ef die hards - its just for one week a month, and if its popular, make it more often?

idk something like this is literally the only way anyone would ever change the status quo