Author Topic: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)  (Read 325666 times)

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2015, 09:21:43 PM »
kadima was made up of ex likud members, why would they be better.



what do you think zionist union is. the left is almost as dead in israel as it is in the us
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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2015, 11:03:00 AM »
    

Offline tora is a simp bitch for billionaires

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2015, 11:13:24 AM »

what do you think zionist union is. the left is almost as dead in israel as it is in the us

no it isn't. the third biggest party in israel is joint list. an arab led party that includes socialists , communists , feminists and palestinian nationalists.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 11:16:40 AM by jon »

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2015, 11:18:17 AM »

what do you think zionist union is. the left is almost as dead in israel as it is in the us
no it isn't. the third biggest party in israel is joint list.

Joint List is a pan-Arab party that includes everyone from leftists to islamists to center-left collaborator types and their only purpose (and the only thing they can realistically accomplish politically) is to be a united voting bloc for Arab Israeli interests. They only have 13 seats in the Knesset out of 120. Further the interests of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians in the OT do not always align. But it doesn't matter anyway because such a party is never going to get a majority in the Knesset and is never going to win significant votes from Israeli Jews and Israel is still completely without a credible or effective left opposition. And history shows its probably a matter of time before the mainstream Jewish parties try to ban them just for being Arab anyway.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 11:19:56 AM by fuckboi1488 »
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Offline tora is a simp bitch for billionaires

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #64 on: May 08, 2015, 12:42:14 PM »

what do you think zionist union is. the left is almost as dead in israel as it is in the us
no it isn't. the third biggest party in israel is joint list.

Joint List is a pan-Arab party that includes everyone from leftists to islamists to center-left collaborator types and their only purpose (and the only thing they can realistically accomplish politically) is to be a united voting bloc for Arab Israeli interests. They only have 13 seats in the Knesset out of 120. Further the interests of Israeli Arabs and Palestinians in the OT do not always align. But it doesn't matter anyway because such a party is never going to get a majority in the Knesset and is never going to win significant votes from Israeli Jews and Israel is still completely without a credible or effective left opposition. And history shows its probably a matter of time before the mainstream Jewish parties try to ban them just for being Arab anyway.
arabs are a minority in israel , they make up 20% of israel's population. for them to have any seats in the Knesset, enough to be the third largest party in the country is  huge .

you're right that palestinians and israeli arabs won't always have the same opinions on every issue but that's every party. what matters are the core issues , the main one being peaceful resolution and better rights for the palestinians.

the bottom line is parties working together to oust netanyahu can only be good. likud needs to crumble and only better things will result from  that.

to claim it'll never get better as long as israel exists is quite dire, as israel will probably never go anywhere and it would require only extreme force from powerful military to oust them. a highly developed nation of over 8million people isn't just going to disappear. and how would you morally be able to do something like that without genocidal crimes against humanity ?? then the fact that israel has nukes, yea not a good situation for anyone.at this point we need a government in israel that's willing to work with palestinians to a peaceful resolution not some war mongering piece of shit like netanyahu.

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #65 on: May 08, 2015, 01:02:48 PM »
arabs are a minority in israel , they make up 20% of israel's population. for them to have any seats in the Knesset, enough to be the third largest party in the country is  huge .

yes, they are represented in the knesset even less than they are in the general population, even with the big tent joint list party

you're right that palestinians and israeli arabs won't always have the same opinions on every issue but that's every party. what matters are the core issues , the main one being peaceful resolution and better rights for the palestinians.

no israeli political party with a chance of gaining power is offering this though.


to claim it'll never get better as long as israel exists is quite dire, as israel will probably never go anywhere and it would require only extreme force from powerful military to oust them. a highly developed nation of over 8million people isn't just going to disappear. and how would you morally be able to do something like that without genocidal crimes against humanity ?? then the fact that israel has nukes, yea not a good situation for anyone.at this point we need a government in israel that's willing to work with palestinians to a peaceful resolution not some war mongering piece of shit like netanyahu.

no one's saying you forcefully evict all jews from palestine, that's not realistic. it would be enough to replace israel with a democratic state founded on equality for all religions and ethnicities, with certain policies put into place to disempower the jewish power structure

an israeli government, that is, a government of the jewish state, working with palestinians for peace in good faith is not a realistic possibility, their interests are opposed. the best we can hope for is an arrangement where israel and the palestinian elites and power brokers come to an arrangement that keeps israel in a position of power over the palestinians but gives local elites some nominal degree of autonomy, prestige and economic well being
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Offline foonat

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2015, 05:05:55 PM »
did you guys know about bernie's position on gun control? i didn't..... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html


yeah as the article says its largely a political thing due to demographics and constituency. to be honest i am very cynical about sanders and don't plan on supporting him with any kind of enthusiasm but these kinds of attacks seem like they're coming straight from cynical centrist dems. like he votes to shield gun manufacturers once and i'm supposed to be more upset about that than clinton being a complete sycophant to every industry but the firearm industry? its a bad vote and a bad position from every angle (even if you "support the second amendment" there's no good reason to shield gun manufacturers from liability) but in the big picture its kinda meh and seems like the kind of thing a candidate like clinton would love to use to bash him with
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 05:08:02 PM by fuckboi1488 »
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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2015, 05:12:41 PM »
heh someone on my facebook got real mad about a bernie meme that showed that hillary took way more money from bankers, because it was inaccurate or something

http://i.imgur.com/GCOVi0J.png

1. This is not (just) a list of corporate contributions. Note the column labelled "Indivs" -- those are people who *work for* the company in question. This data doesn't tell us anything about particular candidates being "in the pockets" of whatever large corporation.
2. This data does not include any contributions for the 2016 presidential election. This is all the donations they have ever received through 2008 for Hillary and 2014 for Sanders. So it's comparing Clinton's donations from her Senate campaigns and (I assume) 2008 Presidential campaign with Sanders' donations from his senate campaigns. Note that New York and Vermont are home to very different industries and populations. And that Presidential elections and Senate elections operate at very different scales.
Come to whatever conclusion you like, but this particular "comparison" is pretty much useless as data. I mean, yes, obviously Sanders is going to have more union support, what with being a self-described socialist. You don't need this chart to "prove" that.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 05:14:52 PM by blid »
    

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2015, 05:13:58 PM »
lol at point #1
    

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2015, 05:17:28 PM »
did you guys know about bernie's position on gun control? i didn't..... http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2015/05/bernie_sanders_on_guns_vermont_independent_voted_against_gun_control_for.html


yeah as the article says its largely a political thing due to demographics and constituency. to be honest i am very cynical about sanders and don't plan on supporting him with any kind of enthusiasm but these kinds of attacks seem like they're coming straight from cynical centrist dems. like he votes to shield gun manufacturers once and i'm supposed to be more upset about that than clinton being a complete sycophant to every industry but the firearm industry? its a bad vote and a bad position from every angle (even if you "support the second amendment" there's no good reason to shield gun manufacturers from liability) but in the big picture its kinda meh and seems like the kind of thing a candidate like clinton would love to use to bash him with
his support for gun ownership is a little more than what you're describing - he even voted against the Brady bill, among other things (e.g., allowing people to carry guns on Amtrak trains - what could go wrong when you combine people and guns in an enclosed space that is travelling at 70 mph or whatever?). i also don't think the implication of the article is that one should prefer clinton over him. clinton is awful obviously, but i think this just goes to show that bernie isn't some savior of the left or anything (as you've been discussing with jon). my personal voting plan is to vote for bernie in the primaries as my way of telling the dems that i prefer a shift to the left for the party, and then abstaining from the actual election. i know it won't make a difference but w/e

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2015, 05:59:43 PM »
What if the left opposes gun control? 

“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.”

– Karl Marx, March, 1850
    

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2015, 06:01:45 PM »
my personal voting plan is to vote for bernie in the primaries as my way of telling the dems that i prefer a shift to the left for the party, and then abstaining from the actual election. i know it won't make a difference but w/e
yeah i only ever want to vote for people that will lose.  if theyre gonna win then id prefer to vote for someone else, further to the left, as a fuck you.  trying to decide between doing that and not voting at all is spending way too much time on a question whose answer is pretty irrelevant
    

Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2015, 09:07:33 PM »
Quote from: Swift
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Offline CumSavorer4385

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Re: us 2016 elections thread (america ftw)
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2015, 09:08:55 PM »
What if the left opposes gun control? 

“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.”

– Karl Marx, March, 1850

This is why I support full gun ownership for the working class and the party organs representing them and the forced disarmament of the bourgeoisie and their proxies (the police).
Quote from: Swift
i don't know if i'll ever forgive you for how you treated turtleman