anti-capitalism thread

[Swift]

There are people who build empires from the ground up, work their asses off to do so, and give the vast majority of it away.

no. these people who "build empires" literally do not exist. give me an example and i'll point you a large group of exploited people.

Well, I don't have any real life examples I can provide, because I don't know really know all the details of how they obtained their initial capital. But lets use our imagination.

I can all but guarantee that, if we stick with real estate examples, that some investors start out working a normal job and just save up. After a few years they buy their first single-family residence. Then after another year or two of saving + cash flow from first rental, they buy a second, then another year later they buy a duplex with more saved up money + cash flow from the two rentals, then six months later they buy a four plex, then six months later they trade up the four-plex to a 12 plex.

20-30 years later they have a large portfolio where they provide competitive rents, and in our example, we're talking about the GOOD rich folk, who are few and far between, they proceed to donate the vast majority.

so, where would the exploitation be?

[CumSavorer4385]

1. I am not talking about the rich who sit back and enjoy their wealth and provide nothing. There are people who build empires from the ground up, work their asses off to do so, and give the vast majority of it away.

That's a propaganda myth. No one builds a capitalist empire without doing so off the backs of others.

2. I am not talking about people exploited outside of this country. I am also not defending those who exploit them.

Yes you are, you're defending the rich and the American bourgeois and middle classes, those are the primary exploiters of those people.

Also I don't know who you're referring to when you say "these people". The types I am talking about do not fund genocides, or back evil dictators.

You mean they don't vote for or donate to Republican and Democratic political campaigns?

I am also not talking about the same type of "philanthropist" you're describing. I clarified this already. I am talking about ones who give give the vast majority away, not the greedy/evil types you're describing.

They don't exist.

You aren't following what I am saying.

Here's another example: There's a four squares pastor here in Oregon who is worth around 20 million in real estate and was offered over 100k salary for head pastor position at his church. I have a few friends who do ministry in the same church, and apparently he turned down the 100k salary and instead takes 1 dollar/yr, and his real estate produces net cash flow of over 1 million, of which he collects somewhere around 60-80k and donates the rest.

Thoughts on this particular example?

He practices parasitic, exploitative rentier capitalism and that's the only reason he's allowed to engage in the "charity" of refusing a salary?

And also, please do not compare this type of rich folk to the "aw but they give a million bucks to cancer research or whatever", because they're night and day different, and I am clearly talking about the truly far more generous one. The pastor is a true philanthropist, the other is a phony.

 

Gullible as fuck.

[CumSavorer4385]

Well, I don't have any real life examples I can provide, because I don't know really know all the details of how they obtained their initial capital. But lets use our imagination.

lmfao. "well no, i don't have any evidence, but if you use your imagination, i think you'll see its possible to conceive of a universe where i'm right"

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

There are people who build empires from the ground up, work their asses off to do so, and give the vast majority of it away.

no. these people who "build empires" literally do not exist. give me an example and i'll point you a large group of exploited people.

Well, I don't have any real life examples I can provide, because I don't know really know all the details of how they obtained their initial capital. But lets use our imagination.

I can all but guarantee that, if we stick with real estate examples, that some investors start out working a normal job and just save up. After a few years they buy their first single-family residence. Then after another year or two of saving + cash flow from first rental, they buy a second, then another year later they buy a duplex with more saved up money + cash flow from the two rentals, then six months later they buy a four plex, then six months later they trade up the four-plex to a 12 plex.

20-30 years later they have a large portfolio where they provide competitive rents, and in our example, we're talking about the GOOD rich folk, who are few and far between, they proceed to donate the vast majority.

so, where would the exploitation be?

so they're landlords? the most disgusting exploitation there is.

[Swift]

There are people who build empires from the ground up, work their asses off to do so, and give the vast majority of it away.

no. these people who "build empires" literally do not exist. give me an example and i'll point you a large group of exploited people.

Well, I don't have any real life examples I can provide, because I don't know really know all the details of how they obtained their initial capital. But lets use our imagination.

I can all but guarantee that, if we stick with real estate examples, that some investors start out working a normal job and just save up. After a few years they buy their first single-family residence. Then after another year or two of saving + cash flow from first rental, they buy a second, then another year later they buy a duplex with more saved up money + cash flow from the two rentals, then six months later they buy a four plex, then six months later they trade up the four-plex to a 12 plex.

20-30 years later they have a large portfolio where they provide competitive rents, and in our example, we're talking about the GOOD rich folk, who are few and far between, they proceed to donate the vast majority.

so, where would the exploitation be?

so they're landlords? the most disgusting exploitation there is.

If they kept it for themselves, sure.

[CumSavorer4385]

Even the people you are describing as "good capitalists" keep most of their earnings for themselves, if they didn't they would not be wealthy.

[Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)]

This just in: capitalism rules!

[CumSavorer4385]

This just in: capitalism rules!

Rules at destroying the planet, and human dignity.

[Swift]

Well, I don't have any real life examples I can provide, because I don't know really know all the details of how they obtained their initial capital. But lets use our imagination.

lmfao. "well no, i don't have any evidence, but if you use your imagination, i think you'll see its possible to conceive of a universe where i'm right"

That might apply, if my example weren't something that obviously happens frequently across the country. biggerpockets.com forum is full of hundreds, if not thousands of people who fit the exact example I provided. My other examples were of people I know/met in real life though.

Anyhow, if a person were to build up a rental portfolio off of a combination of funds from full time job + bank loans + build up of cash flow as he acquire more and more rentals + refinancing and then went and proceeded to donate the vast majority of his earnings year after year leaving him with a self paid salary well under 100k/yr then he is doing something good. You can sit back and talk about Marxist ideals and "what type of economy we should have" and you would be right, but realize that all the exploitation you're wanting to prevent/stop is very real, and there are a lot of people hurting/suffering from it. The easiest way to help them right now is to utilize the current system itself, in order to help people instead of exploit them. And that is exactly what the person in the example I just used is doing - they aren't just talking about it while doing nothing to change it like people on this forum. 

[Swift]

Even the people you are describing as "good capitalists" keep most of their earnings for themselves, if they didn't they would not be wealthy.

Assuming my examples aren't related to leverage investments (buy and hold real estate), which they are, then you would be absolutely correct. I can go and buy a 10 million dollar apartment complex if I find the right couple to seller finance it with a small down. That complex will then slowly pay for itself, and I would not have had to put any of my cash flow/earnings to pay off the mortgage. After 10-30 years (or whatever the length of the loan is), I would own that complex out right and be worth whatever it's market value is at that time.

Even if we were using other examples though, where leverage isn't at play in order to acquire wealth, yes more often than not it takes money to make money. So on one's adventure to build a capitalist empire for good, he will have to save for a while in order to reinvest it so that he can build up a business that produces a "sufficient" amount of returns to fund whatever cause he plans to.

[CumSavorer4385]

Anyhow, if a person were to build up a rental portfolio off of a combination of funds from full time job + bank loans + build up of cash flow as he acquire more and more rentals + refinancing and then went and proceeded to donate the vast majority of his earnings year after year leaving him with a self paid salary well under 100k/yr then he is doing something good.

No he's not? He's growing rich off exploiting others through rent-seeking.

You can sit back and talk about Marxist ideals and "what type of economy we should have" and you would be right, but realize that all the exploitation you're wanting to prevent/stop is very real, and there are a lot of people hurting/suffering from it. The easiest way to help them right now is to utilize the current system itself, in order to help people instead of exploit them.

That's impossible to do, the current system is incapable of solving the problem on exploitation because exploitation is an integral part of the current system and any accumulation of wealth that takes place within it. It's not about "Marxist ideals" because I am not speaking in terms of ideals, I am speaking on how society is actually constructed and functions on a material basis. You are the one who is the idealist, ignoring the material reality of exploitation so you can wax poetic about how some rich people do good because they donate a meager percentage of their ill gotten wealth to "good causes."

[CumSavorer4385]

Even the people you are describing as "good capitalists" keep most of their earnings for themselves, if they didn't they would not be wealthy.

Assuming my examples aren't related to leverage investments (buy and hold real estate), which they are, then you would be absolutely correct. I can go and buy a 10 million dollar apartment complex if I find the right couple to seller finance it with a small down. That complex will then slowly pay for itself, and I would not have had to put any of my cash flow/earnings to pay off the mortgage. After 10-30 years (or whatever the length of the loan is), I would own that complex out right and be worth whatever it's market value is at that time.

Even if we were using other examples though, where leverage isn't at play in order to acquire wealth, yes more often than not it takes money to make money. So on one's adventure to build a capitalist empire for good, he will have to save for a while in order to reinvest it so that he can build up a business that produces a "sufficient" amount of returns to fund whatever cause he plans to.

Yes and the only way to generate that wealth under capitalism is through exploitation. This is what you don't understand, there is no just and equitable way to be wealthy under capitalism.

[Swift]

"No he's not? He's growing rich off exploiting others through rent-seeking."


Again, if it were possible to change the system anytime soon, then yeah lets focus on that. Capitalism is disgusting.

But it happens to be quite popular these days, and although that can likely change it won't anytime soon.

So we can sit idle and do nothing, and you and I can continue to sit back and contribute to the exploitation ourselves, as we do, or we can find ways to utilize the system to benefit others.

So you say hes growing rich - but I say hes giving almost all of it away and keeping <100k for his family. So his riches are really for others, and the rest is to allow him to live comfortably but not excessively. But ohhh, so what if hes giving it away, it doesn't matter because he only got it through exploiting renters. Yeah what a travesty, american's renters have it sooo bad. I can't believe they're being skinned alive by their landlords for an extra $50-250 a month so that he can help those over privileged $2 a day earners in third world countries.

Again if you can change it, change it - but we can't. So we can talk about fairy tales, or we can do something practical to make it happen.

And yes, in the long run my idea doesn't fix the issue. It will allow the system to perpetuate due to the majority of rich being evil and also the very nature of capitalism itself. At best it's a glorified bandaid to a much bigger problem, but a much needed bandaid (cuz people's suffering is real), until real change occurs and capitalism in finally thrown in the trash can of terrible ideas - if it ever happens.

[Certified MENSA Genius Brain (smart)]

A landlord is like the worst example you can use of a good capitalist... even if they're donating their income, they're just taking that wealth from one set of people and then redistributing it

[Swift]

Blid - I don't know why I choose to describe discounted rents as "competitive rents" as  I guess that could be construed as near market value OR below and I am only talking about below market, as referenced in my second example.

So as another example, say the market rents in an area are $600, and said landlord charges tenants $500 - and then everything else remains the same as in my examples. (Note, in my second example - the pastor under rents all of his units by 20%)

So now not only is he doing good deeds with any excess profits, he is also providing discount housing to people that was not otherwise available to them.

So he is doing all this good, and then bringing in a comfortable wage for his family.