Minor balance fix ideas

[Lone]

I assume we have access to the base code, as latency and lumber bug were fixed.

Stop trying to modify war2.  This is what Wargus is for and you DO have access to the native code there.  In war2 you do NOT.  Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2.  Wargus exists for a reason.  It's so that modifications of war2 could be done NATIVELY.  You can take wargus and make it IDENTICAL to war2 and then re-modify it until it's no longer war2 if you want.  And it is fully multi-user capable when coupled with a Metaserver (same idea as PVPGN).  Host your own Metaserver,  bam, done.

"In war2 you do NOT.  Its all bubble gum and duct tape when you try to modify the original war2." I don't know much about this. I wonder, how did the prior modifications done by iL took place then.

1) Regardless, you're suggesting that the fixes I described would be considerably harder to implement, than to turn wargus into wc2? Cause the latter would require a huge amount of effort which in the end would be wasted.
-If this is the case, and you have some time to go on, I'd be curious to hear more about how wc2combat was modified up to this point. Wargus is out of the question. Even if someone managed to turn it into wc2 having spent probably months on it, it's unlikely the whole server (people, and on a technical level) would move.

2) Or are you simply against all or some changes (eg.: lumber fix, warlat)?
-This is also valid and understandable. I have not played (online) with the lumber bug, but I see no problem with it being in or out of the game. I can see people who were used to it, and suddenly had it taken away would be upset. On the other hand, everyone is fine with it now. Regarding warlat, some people don't use it (sg), some don't mind it (braviet). I personally rely on it to the point, I'd lose 30% more games without it, and I'd also have to simplify my playstyle. Tower 'bug' is a healthy element of the game, that requires a lot of experience to first understand, then utilize/fight against. "Fixing" tower "bug" would be a terrible idea for online wc2 for example. If you are plain against the above changes, please explain how the above changes will impact gameplay psychologically, and in terms of what happens in the game at various skill levels.

[{Lance}]

1) Regardless, you're suggesting that the fixes I described would be considerably harder to implement, than to turn wargus into wc2?

2) Or are you simply against all or some changes (eg.: lumber fix, warlat)?
-This is also valid and understandable. I have not played (online) with the lumber bug, but I see no problem with it being in or out of the game. I can see people who were used to it, and suddenly had it taken away would be upset. On the other hand, everyone is fine with it now. Regarding warlat, some people don't use it (sg), some don't mind it (braviet). I personally rely on it to the point, I'd lose 30% more games without it, and I'd also have to simplify my playstyle. Tower 'bug' is a healthy element of the game, that requires a lot of experience to first understand, then utilize/fight against. "Fixing" tower "bug" would be a terrible idea for online wc2 for example. If you are plain against the above changes, please explain how the above changes will impact gameplay psychologically, and in terms of what happens in the game at various skill levels.

It would take literally 1-2 days of a REAL dev removing the GARBAGE that Wargus has added to it in order to bring it back to War2.  It would take literally YEARS to implement what wargus has done with war2 and it would be BUGGY AS ALL HELL because it's not done using native code.  Pick your poison.  Lambhax doesnt know the difference between machine language and a real language,  this is why he doesnt understand the comparison.  Here an example,  it's like trying to modify a car to make it louder, faster, and better,  without being able to open the hood,  sure you can do a few things, but eventually you're going to want to access whatever is under the hood in order to really make it pur.  It's welded shut with an impenetrable metal and the only way you can get to it is by using a car lift,  some fucked up tools that bend in ways that shouldnt be needed,  etc.  That is exactly how war2 is modified.  But with wargus, everything is accessible,  including the hood.

I am actually NOT against changes at all.  I fully believe that there is already an outlet that does this beautifully and it's name is Wargus (not to be confused with stratagus which is the actual engine itself).  Wargus is but ONE implementation of stratagus.  That doesnt mean you cant re-create war2 (with its "feel") using stratagus.  Anyone who says that,  simply doesnt know what stratagus is or how it works.  There are actually 2 paths you can take to recreate war2.  Start with barebones Stratagus or Reverse changes done in Wargus.  IMO it would be easiest to reverse Wargus than it would be to start with a base Stratagus,  but either path is actually BETTER than attempting to "hook" war2 to death like has been going on.  Just because no one has done this yet doesnt mean it's not a viable option.

[Incos]

Why build a whole game when Warcraft 2 can be balanced with a code change. Blizzard never balanced Warcraft 2, even the devs admit that on water they were stronger and orc was stronger on land.  We know that most people don’t play water maps.  Sometimes small increases are better then none, especially if the public votes it (saw the chop bar removed because of how many votes)

[{Lance}]

Incos,  I realize you're still new around here and are not a developer,  but "with a code change" isnt possible with War2.  It's only possible with the STRATAGUS engine.  If you change something in war2,  you literally have to hack the thing with unconventional methods such as memory editing, changing MPQ files with hex editors,  etc (it's like cutting through the hood of a car with a cutting torch just to get to the engine when you could instead pop the hood the right way with a lever).  It makes no sense to modify war2 as far as balance goes.  It makes more sense to use the proper tools for that which is Stratagus/Wargus.

I'm also now going to call you out on that "devs" admission quote.  I am about 95% certain it was never said,  so lets see it,  link pls.  Where did the blizzard devs say such non-sense (although the statement is true, it was never said publicly by blizzard devs).  YWFN as far as I know is the ONLY blizzard personnel to have ever really been a member of the war2 community after BNE was released.  Do you even know who that is?  Probably not,  you're still new around here so I wouldnt expect as much.  And he wasnt a dev.  He was just a QA person I believe and he is the ONLY person I can think of that Blizzard hired who would have said such a thing (mainly because it's a true statement).

[Incos]

Yeah I played with ywfn on kali about 6 years before you came.  We had azteca pimster guan, watje, archangel, tillerman, dethwlkr, warmonger and so many more. It was fun back then and it is still fun now.

[{Lance}]

Yeah I played with ywfn on kali about 6 years before you came.  We had azteca pimster guan, watje, archangel, tillerman, dethwlkr, warmonger and so many more. It was fun back then and it is still fun now.

Heh u crack me up.  6 yrs before I came would put that 4yrs BEFORE warcraft 1 let alone war2 lol.  Seems you're a bit mixed up on whats what beyond just war2 mods   You know whats even more curious,  I recognize and know all the players you mentioned......... EXCEPT for you.  So unless you've been smurfin since 2017,  I do believe you're just pulling up the nostalgia page and claiming things

A lol war2 trivia night sounds cool.  Where did Azteca work?  (This is something all the players he played with knew because he gloated about it almost daily)

[Harrywangs]

I'm not sure what everyone's fascination with "fixing" this game is lately. I am generally not for it BUT I respect Lone and am not 100% against all of his ideas either.

I personally am okay with pults being equal to ballistas. This makes me a hypocrite but this change I don't really mind. I don't think the game shouldn't be imba so early on and gays are a HUGE part of GOW.

Unholy vision- I get it, I don't necessarily hate the idea but I don't see a HUGE necessity for it. Wouldn't piss me off if it went through but I would veto.

Heal- I would veto but wouldn't overly cry if it went through.

Lat- I'm all for the no lat. I'm not 100% sure how it works for war2 but I know in war3, when you had the 3rd party program and hosted a game, EVERYONE had the amazingly good lat, not just 1 person. I'm all for that. Makes a big difference in micro.

I'm also very against the whole, we can add it, and if you want it, you click on it when you install, and if you don't, you don't click on the feature. WE ALL NEED TO BE PLAYING THE SAME GAME, at least in game features. (Minus color patch) Allowing the people that want it to have it, and those who don't, to not have it, is not a solution. Those who don't want it, don't want it for EVERYONE.

[Lone]

Lance, I'll check out Wargus in the future when I have time and energy for such hobbies. Not sure, but I assume I would personally need more than just 2 days. Without Wargus being turned into wc2, such changes are infeasible, and simply editing values of stuff (cost, speed etc...) via a hex editor will not gain a considerable amount of support/tolerance.

Harry, thanks for your kind and reasonable input! Also, what is Unholy vision? Sounds like a cool idea!
I am not sure how warlat works either and why some people have technical issues with it. It is probably due to people using older versions like BNE...

[shesycompany]

ill save you the trouble ...wyrmsun is all you want

that's true lone... even customs are very hard to get any take off if they arent 20 y/o

all one would want to do with modding war2 is to make sc beta alpha... orcs in space..war2 goes purple..

unholy vision