FINALLYY EVERY 1 NEEDS THIS

[Harrywangs]

Going to try and shorten this as it seems there are only a few things we disagree on now.

I disagree with you and I figured my lazy example would be enough for you to understand the point I was trying to get across, so I will reattempt. Right now, seeing a health bar mandates 1 (per unit) or multiple clicks. A click is an action (like P or peons), an action alters game play by freeing up time/physical clicks and thoughts for other actions.

So, hypothetically, because I'm not doing these things anymore (with the hypothetical health bar mod) I keep my choke more (1 of many examples, feel free to ask for more). If I do it the way we do it now, maybe my choke breaks because a grunt was weak and I missed it. Now, he gets in my base, and now I have to do a whole mess of other things to defend, which snowball the rest of the game. That is a HUGE effect on game play that you are failing to realize.

This is not simply just a visual. You are widely underestimating the feature. They are related, yes at different extremes, but they are indeed related and the fact that you don't realize what 1 click can do in this game is a bit concerning. Seconds/split seconds are very important. Like you said, it doesn't matter (Health Bars mod not there) but there is your better example to prove my point and to demonstrate your ignorance on this matter.

This also explains my other "silly example"s that you referred to and how they are, while more extreme, absolutely relevant. I am against (most) game play changing mods. That is not some big umbrella you are making it out to be, it's simple, game play, things that directly effect the game while you play...... Example: Not pre game mods, or watcher mods, or chat room, end game stats, map view, etc mods.

Let me explain the chop situation to you since you don't understand the value of the chop even though you like to condescendingly try to explain it to me.

Evidence: "IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time."

If I choose to chop out of my base. Especially early game, I absolutely count the chops in my head. This way I know when to go back and close before I get raped by grunts sitting outside my base waiting to see a chop. Seconds matter. Do I count the 51 to the exact chop? Hell no, but I look around 45ish, knowing it will be any second and that I will naturally be off count. You don't have to be super smart to count to 45.

Chopping into someones base while doing other things is another time I count. When I'm doing something or upgrading something that can be foiled by my opponents chop, I count to see if I need to cancel the building to block after he chops. Aka gays.

The fact that you don't know this also shows you that, yes, you know less game play than more experienced players. People that often beat me, are more experienced and outsmart me, naturally. I am not some pro you painted me out to be. I am just above average on GOW. Swift/U8/Shotgun/00s/so many other people could tell you and me things about the game that we have no idea about, believe me.

"I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else."

I hear you, I was never a GOW player until RU, I wasn't even a EF player. Until 3-4ish years ago? I hated GOW. But in this instance, your argument has no base. You're saying GOWers don't get to dictate the game, yet I'm saying, you can't ignore GOWers as they are 1/2 of your population at this point in time. It's not 2001 anymore. If you do something that effects GOWers only and not the rest of the game, you cannot in good conscience implement it without pissing off 1/2 of the community. You will have to deal with your hatred for now.

Quote from: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM

    I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condescension in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.

Yeah, I already told you I did. War3 example in my answer. You do not understand the game play as well as top GOWers. You need to realize that. I do not understand chop/paintball, I don't talk to it like I do. Humble yourself.

[Lambchops]

Going to try and shorten this as it seems there are only a few things we disagree on now.

I disagree with you and I figured my lazy example would be enough for you to understand the point I was trying to get across, so I will reattempt. Right now, seeing a health bar mandates 1 (per unit) or multiple clicks. A click is an action (like P or peons), an action alters game play by freeing up time/physical clicks and thoughts for other actions.

So, hypothetically, because I'm not doing these things anymore (with the hypothetical health bar mod) I keep my choke more (1 of many examples, feel free to ask for more). If I do it the way we do it now, maybe my choke breaks because a grunt was weak and I missed it. Now, he gets in my base, and now I have to do a whole mess of other things to defend, which snowball the rest of the game. That is a HUGE effect on game play that you are failing to realize.

No, not failing to realize it at all. I just think it's silly that you, as the commander of forces, could ask 3 grunts about their physical condition and get the precise answer for all 3, but not know which answer relates to which grunt. What do they write their answers on scraps of paper then put them in a hat before handing them back to you? This seems to be obviously the result of a very early (and hastily written) RTS interface, and an issue that has been corrected in every successive game in the genre.

However that is a valid argument that the proposed health bars plugin will have an effect, if not an argument that the effect is a negative one, or even a "HUGE" one, but thank you for your input.

Do you have an argument as to why fixing that glitch is a negative apart from "don't change anything"?

This is not simply just a visual. You are widely underestimating the feature. They are related, yes at different extremes, but they are indeed related and the fact that you don't realize what 1 click can do in this game is a bit concerning. Seconds/split seconds are very important. Like you said, it doesn't matter (Health Bars mod not there) but there is your better example to prove my point and to demonstrate your ignorance on this matter.


This also explains my other "silly example"s that you referred to and how they are, while more extreme, absolutely relevant. I am against (most) game play changing mods. That is not some big umbrella you are making it out to be, it's simple, game play, things that directly effect the game while you play...... Example: Not pre game mods, or watcher mods, or chat room, end game stats, map view, etc mods.

No, your silly examples were:

Hey, guys, while we are at it, it is very difficult to make peons early game consistently while microing and gaying, can we please make a mod for auto peons? I would also like auto peon management, the correct peons on wood and gold at all times please. Wouldn't mind auto attack after X grunts at a rax. I mean, we already have the double click hack we somehow allow (still baffled), why not made a mod so I can lust all 9 in one second? Also, a dk radar so I know when a dk is approaching my base so I can pull peons. Auto pull too, why not. That would be much easier. Oh, that would just destroy the game.

They remain silly examples, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion

Let me explain the chop situation to you since you don't understand the value of the chop even though you like to condescendingly try to explain it to me.

Evidence: "IMO The only time the chop bars plugin can actually be a real advantage is when you want to pull a peon off lumber to build something, then you can choose the one that has been chopping the least amount of time."

Haha yes I noticed that "only" after I had posted, and immediately knew that you would bring up chopping in/out. It has been mentioned before in this discussion and of course I am aware of it. For the record it was around 2am and I had to cut some bit out to get that post under the forum limit, so I didnt proof-read it very well.

If I choose to chop out of my base. Especially early game, I absolutely count the chops in my head. This way I know when to go back and close before I get raped by grunts sitting outside my base waiting to see a chop. Seconds matter. Do I count the 51 to the exact chop? Hell no, but I look around 45ish, knowing it will be any second and that I will naturally be off count. You don't have to be super smart to count to 45.

Chopping into someones base while doing other things is another time I count. When I'm doing something or upgrading something that can be foiled by my opponents chop, I count to see if I need to cancel the building to block after he chops. Aka gays.

The fact that you don't know this also shows you that, yes, you know less game play than more experienced players. People that often beat me, are more experienced and outsmart me, naturally. I am not some pro you painted me out to be. I am just above average on GOW. Swift/U8/Shotgun/00s/so many other people could tell you and me things about the game that we have no idea about, believe me.

You win me typing "only" instead of "main". Do you seriously think I don't understand chopping into/out of bases? Really?

So how is this a radical/detrimental change to the game? Are you relying on your superior ability to count to 51 to give you some tiny edge over new players so you can own them even harder?

Here's what you don't understand because you have not tried it: You counting in your head is still an advantage (obviously). Do you think that this is simply replaced by someone repeatedly switching back to the chopping peon and checking the progress bar? "Seconds matter" - if you can keep that count in your head while doing other things then you are still in front.

"I honestly think that this very narrow focus and the arrogant "pro" attitude that goes with it has been, and continues to be, the single most detrimental thing to the health of the community as a whole. No, those people do not know the game better, that cliquey little scene is not "The Game". They do not own it any more than chop players, paintball players, the water map guys, free players or anyone else."

I hear you, I was never a GOW player until RU, I wasn't even a EF player. Until 3-4ish years ago? I hated GOW. But in this instance, your argument has no base. You're saying GOWers don't get to dictate the game, yet I'm saying, you can't ignore GOWers as they are 1/2 of your population at this point in time. It's not 2001 anymore. If you do something that effects GOWers only and not the rest of the game, you cannot in good conscience implement it without pissing off 1/2 of the community.

So you speak for half the communtiy? One of the main problems with that group is how cliquey it is. It's like a school-yard mentality with a pecking order where players cow-tow to each other for fear of provoking others into open verbal feuds that can last for years. The "voice" of that community is by and large the loudest and most aggressively obnoxious.

I have never suggested that any player should be ignored. You were suggesting that some players' opinions should carry more weight because they are gow "pros", and I am saying pffffffffff to that.

You will have to deal with your hatred for now.

No their hatred, condecention, bad manners and mainly outright childishness is the problem. It is bad for the community and the game. I usually deal with that ok thanks.

Quote from: Harrywangs on July 14, 2019, 04:03:40 PM

    I'm simply trying to maintain the integrity of the game with my opinion. When you say "a line showing up chopping progress" and diminish it, it really does demonstrate to me that you do not actually understand/underestimate the impact it will have.
No I really do understand it, much better than you do, because you have never even tried it. Your condescension in that statement only highlights your ignorance in suggesting that just because I have not spent the last 20 years honing my reflexes and strategies around a single style of gameplay that somehow I do not understand game mechanics every bit as well as you do.


Yeah, I already told you I did. War3 example in my answer.

Your WC3 example was ambiguous, I could not discern if it related to trying a chopping progress mod or an auto-lust mod, so I ignored it as being irrellivent either way as the differences in game mechanics between WC2 and WC3 are so radically different.

Is the same person who is lecturing me on how "seconds matter" etc. really arguing that testing a feature (perticluarly one relating to spacial movement) on a different game is good enough to not even bother testing it on the game you are talking about?

You do not understand the game play as well as top GOWers. You need to realize that. I do not understand chop/paintball, I don't talk to it like I do. Humble yourself. [/b]

Hahaha I need to what?

Another arrogant gow player telling me to humble myself because I'm not a GOW pro so therefore I am inferior.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE

Obviously you don't understand chop or you would not even consider lecturing me on opening a base. Do you notice me suggesting that you should "humble yourself"? Serously, just think about how arrogant and ignorant you sound.


Here's what you need to do if you want me to pay the slightest attention to you:

First try the mod so you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, then formulate logical argument as to why it not only has an effect, but has a negative effect on gameplay/balance - given that all players get the same mod - or at least the option to have it.

[Warbux]

man people gotta get wit the times.. these updates are improvement it doesn't change the game dramitcally as ur bringin it up to be... ok so u can pull the chopper wit the least amount of wood to build... really??? that's gonna change the game HUGE?? come on man stop it .. we want to attract new people an bring the game up to times with out changing the real mechanics an I don't think any of lambs updates changes any of that .. stop with the negativity an appreciate what he brings to the table freely please … and we all speak for our selves so lets take count of who agrees with what befor we assume 60% of people do or don't want it

[Cel]

The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields and started to argue about it.

If the mods stay optional and people can tell when they are being used or not by others, no one can be really mad about it because you always have the option not to use them, and make sure people in your game don't use them either. So every one can play the way they want you are not removing the choice from the players.

If you enforce it, then you will unnecessarily piss some people, you are also effectively removing an choice and an option / way the game can be played while we do not really need to.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better

[fois]

You could maybe modify the game version number (if there is one) and then everyone who has the plugins can only join the games from those players who also got the plugins. This way no one who is using a plugin (that isn't accepted by everyone) could never sneak into a game from non-plugin users.

I guess the main issue here is that some plugins are not really optional, you either must use it too or you have a disadvantage. Some players don't want to be forced to use it though, they like the game the way it is.

[O4L]

The chop bars kind of blend in a lot anyways. Probably just me but in the last 3 or so days I have probably played around 60 games and I didn't even notice the chop bar until last night. I think the amount of time it takes to find the peons with less chops or ones about complete wouldn't be worth it the majority of the time.

[Warbux]

The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields and started to argue about it.

If the mods stay optional and people can tell when they are being used or not by others, no one can be really mad about it because you always have the option not to use them, and make sure people in your game don't use them either. So every one can play the way they want you are not removing the choice from the players.

If you enforce it, then you will unnecessarily piss some people, you are also effectively removing an choice and an option / way the game can be played while we do not really need to.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better

Cel they are plug ins even if u force the DL onb very 1` they can remove the plug ins they don't have to keep playin wit it .. the point to forcing ewevery 1 to update is 1 to have the option to use it they can see it an 2 they have AH … as for the plug ins they can remove em if they don't likethem

[Lambchops]

The only thing people argue about is about enforcing it for everyone...
Because someone said they wanted to enforce it (not lambchop) on everyone, people have instantly freaked out and raised their shields ....

Yes, thanks Cel.

I'm sorry if some people feel a bit affronted by my chop bars plugin, perhaps I should have handled that differently, or perhaps not, because the one thing I am absolutely delighted about is that we are now having a conversation about where we want the game to go and people are aware that there are real possibilities available.

At least it seems lamb is on the same page as me on that one from what I've read these mods make the game rich because it gives us legit improvements and also because they are optional.
More options is good how can it be bad, if you don't like it don't use it, haters that do not want these new options can always not use them and others can live their life happily too some may not use them but will totally accept that others do etc.

Absolutely. The plugin framework is designed to give every user total control over what plugins they do or don't use. Each mod is in it's own individual file in the "plugin" folder and enabling/disabling them is as simple as moving them in or out of that folder (ofc you can't do it in the middle of a game, you do need to exit wc2 and restart to do this).

Now for that to work we need a transparent way to tell when someone uses them, and on that later point yes lamb I think a chat message when entering lobby would work or a command or a flag on the status page or all of it are good ideas.

The more we know the better

Agree. I am all about transparancy. If you browse through the 1200 odd posts I have made on this forum you will find many ideas, and much research involving some quite extensive details about the game internals and the possibilities for enriching game. I have never been shy about this, actually I believe I have been more inclusive and shared more of my research about WC2 than any other developer involved with the game.

I have heard Cel's concerns about wanting mod info to be available to all players, and that seems perfectly reasonable, so I will be doing my best to act on that as soon as is practical.

I have a couple of days off coming up so I will definately be putting some research into implimenting this. Hopefully it will be quick and easy to do, so I will have an updated framework ready shortly, possibly even by this weekend, although it is impossible to guarantee a timeframe, not having researched automatic message sending before.

I am also wanting to finish off the gamelog/auto squelching plugin, which I have proven the concept for, but has quite a few moving parts and still a fair bit of work to do.

Also, as I am developing plugins I am discovering certian things that are being repeated in multiple plugins such as detecting when a game starts/ends etc. This code really needs to be moved out of the individual plugins and into the framework itself, to avoid code duplication and unnecessary in-game CPU clocks.

Also the internal format for registration and declaration of plugins needs to be secured - i.e. there is no point if someone can make a different plugin and just call it "lobby map" then declare that.

So I have quite a bit of work to do. I really will do my best to get this all into a standardized package that is readily available to everyone as soon as I possibly can.

.. we want to attract new people an bring the game up to times with out changing the real mechanics an I don't think any of lambs updates changes any of that .. stop with the negativity an appreciate what he brings to the table freely please … and we all speak for our selves

Thanks bux, well put 

The chop bars kind of blend in a lot anyways. Probably just me but in the last 3 or so days I have probably played around 60 games and I didn't even notice the chop bar until last night. I think the amount of time it takes to find the peons with less chops or ones about complete wouldn't be worth it the majority of the time.

.

Thanks for testing. Yes I agree. It's occasionally handy/interesting, but it's not a game-changer




GOW PLAYERS

Despite the rather spirited discussion between Harry and myself, I would like to point out that I have been playing a fair amount of gow lately, and enjoying it. Most of the gow players that I interact with have been inclusive and pretty tolerant of my noobishness, so I would like to thank them for the ggs. I do think that the culture of the game is changing a little bit (which is all we needed) for the better, so kudos to all involved 

[Lambchops]

You could maybe modify the game version number (if there is one) and then everyone who has the plugins can only join the games from those players who also got the plugins. This way no one who is using a plugin (that isn't accepted by everyone) could never sneak into a game from non-plugin users.

I guess the main issue here is that some plugins are not really optional, you either must use it too or you have a disadvantage. Some players don't want to be forced to use it though, they like the game the way it is.

AFAIK there is only a version number attached to the client that is sent as part of the server login negotiation. I don't think this is available on a per-game basis.

Ultimately I think a really good thing would be per-map mods that are embedded in the pud file, and the activated for a single game only for all players involved. This has been a dream of mine for a while, and I think it would be an awesome extension to the game that could re-vitalise the custom game scene. It is still a fair way off, with lots of work to be done, but it is quite achievable, given the time.

[Cel]

Honestly whether I am using the plugin or not I may be totally ok with people using it in the games I host or don't care, especially if the guy using them is pretty new its a good way to give them a small advantage vs a more experienced player that does not use the plugin.

Now ofc if I know who uses it I can balance accordingly kinda based on how good people perform with it.

If you force people to be excluded depending on if they have the same plugins activated or not you remove these options from the table.

If the host does not want others to use a plugin they can always ask them not to and as soon as lamb makes it visible he will be able to tell if they have it on that is enough.

But if the host does not care, which will be the case of most people out there imo, well he wont be impacted at all and can still play with everyone.

 

[Cel]

The good thing with having a command to get a list of all mods used by a player or players in a lobby is that we get to have a sort of "framework" a kind of "normalized" way we can add even more plugins later and manage them all very simply in game.

If I am not mistaking the server uses a sql database we could just make a table that register all known plugins with ids and names.
Then a link table on the ids of users and plugins where we create an entry when a plugin is used for a given player and a timestamp (we can also have a version number here). Basically the plugin would just periodically send a message to say it is basically still alive and running and when the plugin program is exited on exit it sends an "unregister" message and if it crashes well when the time of the period is over we just remove the entry until it is ran again.

I just looked diagonaly at the source code of pvpgnpro it seems commands can be added in lua in that file:
https://github.com/pvpgn/pvpgn-server/blob/master/lua/handle_command.lua

We do not even have to ask pvpgn anything actually we can just go from the lua to ask the mysql or even a php page 

What do you think? I could be very wrong but I get a sense this could be quite simple to do? 

[shesycompany]

well it lasted longer than doom and it had places like zdaemon and skulltag .. thast what war2 needs to be no some shatty wargus......

once upon a  time like in 2009....these dosbox guru's was net connecting windows 98 and playing games surfing the web..if you can netconnect dosbox u got a 100%  compatable war2bnet..but i guess they all retired..not the ipxconnect the ne2000 connect

or just a oracle version. there ya go prob solved for mac users..or anyone.... using a modified reactos

[Harrywangs]

Sorry, the text box is so small that find it difficult to respond via quotes for larger items. That or idk wtf I'm doing, which is probably likely as well.

"Do you have an argument as to why fixing that glitch is a negative apart from "don't change anything"?"

Answer: No, I just don't consider it a glitch, because it's not. It was purposely programmed to do what it does. You're attempting to turn your opinions into facts here. You just want to "improve" it by copying what other games have done because you feel this is better. You are changing the game, period (after 20+ years). If that is something you accept and the community wants to do, then so be it. Just not something I feel is necessary to do.


"They remain silly examples, because they have absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion"

Answer: I've already explained how they can be relative. No need to keep going back and forth, we won't get anywhere at this point.


"So how is this a radical/detrimental change to the game? Are you relying on your superior ability to count to 51 to give you some tiny edge over new players so you can own them even harder?
Answer: There is no need to be condescending here. It is not a "superior ability" to count. An edge that you are taking away by automating, yes. The better you get, the more these little details matter. Ask anyone who is really good at anything, not just War2.

Here's what you don't understand because you have not tried it: You counting in your head is still an advantage (obviously). Do you think that this is simply replaced by someone repeatedly switching back to the chopping peon and checking the progress bar? "Seconds matter" - if you can keep that count in your head while doing other things then you are still in front."

Answer: Again, you fail to understand game play. That was one example. You do understand there are multiple, right? For instance, if I'm just about lust and the guy is starting to gay me, I check the chop, and see what I need to do. I'm not counting because I wasn't anticipating the gay when it happened or didn't see when it started. Maybe I restart it, maybe I stop it, maybe I continue. Please do not limit your views on this.

"So you speak for half the community? One of the main problems with that group is how cliquey it is. It's like a school-yard mentality with a pecking order where players cow-tow to each other for fear of provoking others into open verbal feuds that can last for years. The "voice" of that community is by and large the loudest and most aggressively obnoxious.

I have never suggested that any player should be ignored. You were suggesting that some players' opinions should carry more weight because they are gow "pros", and I am saying pffffffffff to that."

Answer: On a separate thread, I'd really love to here actual examples of these things and who everyone is in this "clique". I will fully acknowledge that there is one but I'm not exactly sure if you even know who or what it is. Sounds like you're grouping a LOT of individuals into this group who don't belong in that group.

I absolutely did not suggest it. I'm telling you GOW is 1/2 the community and that 50% has its weight that needs to be acknowledge and respected. And that is just as much for the other 50% but they are divided and not 1 large group like GOW. So, don't belittle it because you disagree and dislike those people.


"Another arrogant gow player telling me to humble myself because I'm not a GOW pro so therefore I am inferior.
THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE"

Answer: The problem is you don't acknowledge that these people know more about the game play than you do.


"Here's what you need to do if you want me to pay the slightest attention to you:

First try the mod so you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, then formulate logical argument as to why it not only has an effect, but has a negative effect on gameplay/balance - given that all players get the same mod - or at least the option to have it."

Answer: If our goal is to try and recreate the game and the community supports it, then it is what it is. I'm here to play War2, the game I've known and played for a very long time. Not some game that is a subset of what War2 used to be because a few players think they should be fixing and improving the game.

We obviously just have different mindsets of the game and improvements on the game. Arguing is not going to change either of ours at this point. The most we can do, is let it out in the open, and see what the people think. (even though participation itself is another issue) I'm also quite sure most people have stopped reading this by now, haha.

[~oE~]

tl;dr

Harry = correct
Lambchops = noob

[Warbux]

Honestly whether I am using the plugin or not I may be totally ok with people using it in the games I host or don't care, especially if the guy using them is pretty new its a good way to give them a small advantage vs a more experienced player that does not use the plugin.

Now ofc if I know who uses it I can balance accordingly kinda based on how good people perform with it.

If you force people to be excluded depending on if they have the same plugins activated or not you remove these options from the table.

If the host does not want others to use a plugin they can always ask them not to and as soon as lamb makes it visible he will be able to tell if they have it on that is enough.

But if the host does not care, which will be the case of most people out there imo, well he wont be impacted at all and can still play with everyone.

 

im still confused to what advantage were talkin here .. by being able to build with the peon who has the least amount of wood? lol … man lamb if they cant handle that jus remove it then who cares it doenst help me at all its jus a neat feature not worth the paranoia so if we remove that then make it so every 1 uses the same war2 are we all good now ? no more issues?? every 1 can be hack free happily ever after?