HU an Orc Are NOT imbalanced

[Warbux]

so yes playing in normal or even faster speed the game is balanced ... the game makers were not idiots in creating this game .. they did the right job they jus didnt account for people palying in different speed modes .. which is why i say again ladder is balanced playing on no faster then "faster"

[Szwagier]

I keep answering respectfully because maybe you are being serious with the whole thing but I honestly thing you may just be trolling at this point.
You seriously think that in 20 years you are the first one who wants to make it work?
Do you think no one ever ran the math before you to see how much game speed affected both races?

My "ticks" are not wrong, a tick is one game time unit that is not depending on the speed the game is played at, that is what ticks are.
Warcraft 2 is a turn based game where turns are ticks and time is what makes every turn pass to the next.
If you want to remove time out of the equation it is simple: consider war2 a turn based game where a tick is one turn which is why talking in ticks makes sense.

Humans need less workers than Orcs? In what scenario exactly? Prove it!
Do the math and / or share with us one build order that works better for humans than orcs where humans have such an advantage.
And when I say a build order I mean for every peon up to the time you get your advantage tell us what are the orders you give them.

Maybe you feel more comfortable putting your peasant in the gold and not on the wood that is your preference but you see the thing is your argument without facts to back it up can go both ways. One might say if you fail to be as fast when playing the orcs than as a human it just mean you are bad at managing your resources it basically is not relevant.
But hey!
If you really think you can come up with a build order that will allow you to get footmen / knights / Mages faster with better upgrades as humans than an orc can do please go ahead and give us the build order including every peons and what you send them to do.

That way we can discuss / analyse / compare with what an orc may be able to do in the same amount of game time (Ticks) and  starting resources, that would be more interesting than just opinionated statements.

Here is what a fact looks like:
On POS low and many other settings human weapon upgrade cost 1200 more gold than the orc weapon upgrade this is 2 extra grunts from the starting gold mine. On a map like this it can be a significant advantage.
As in many other maps really where gold is more scarce than lumber gold is the one resource players are used fighting over. Now that is also true and undeniable.

Some other fruits for though:
Submarines / Giant turtles rush requires exactly the same number of peons / peasants before upgrading your keep to get your first two turtles out.
same Sappers / Demos Rush.
same goes for DK + D&D / Mage + Blizzard Rush.
Fact is it is true because for all these strats the units / upgrades and ticks costs are exactly the same.

I am betting your point is if you do upgrade your melee troops and include that to your build order it changes things then all I am asking is that you prove it and give us a real undeniable fact to look at.

Now more facts:
The speed makes targeting slow and other tricky spells of humans easier so we may assume an ideal scenario where both players always cast their spell perfectly and never miss:
If humans have perfect micro then the same goes for orcs.
Meaning if both players bring mages and dks to the fight slow and haste are canceled out everytime because both spells take exactly the same amount of resources and game time to get for both races.

The way lust is: as soon as ogres have lust it is safe to consider that lust will always be up on them so no there is no out-running them it is always up.

The hit point healed by heal are just nothing compared to lust I gave the math behind this earlier the spell cost exactly the same price in gold and double the time to research and does not have at all a comparable impact on the game and is harder to use properly.

But hey we said perfect micro here game is super slow both players will have the time to perfectly use all spells.
What does that give us:

6 points of mana for heal = 1 hit point

Heal:
1 point of mana = 0.16666667 hit points

For lust if you use it on an ogre attacking something the ogre has the time to land 40 hits maximum:
We are talking here 16 bonus damage per hit times 40 = 640 bonus damage for 50 mana:

Lust if the ogre lands all his punches (40):
50 mana = 640 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 12.8 hit points

Lust if the ogre lands only one single punch:
50 mana = 16 bonus damage.
1 point of mana = 0.32 hit points

So to resume if we do not take player mistakes into account and consider a hypothetical perfect micro environment we can compare the two spells by their mana vs hit points balance ratio:
Worst case scenario for humans Lust is 80 times as efficient as heal.
Best case scenario for humans Lust is still twice as efficient as heal.

And keep in mind both spells can be used on all organic units but heal will only affect organic units while lust will also boost damages against buildings and structures or mechanical units.

Also that it will cost twice the time to research heal (200 ticks vs 100 ticks for lust).

Funny that you would mention Exhorcism is a very expensive spell (2 times more expensive than its counter parts and is slower to research too), it has a use on one single type of unit out of the 30 units the game really has which unit they already do pretty good against in most situations. Not often that a dk will escape 2 knights running at him so the plus value of exhorcism there is debatable.
So we are talking here a very very situational thing hat has a 4 mana cost per hit points balance effect.

Exhorcism:
1 point of mana = 0.25 hit points

Still is 0.25 hit points per mana.
So still not as effective as a one punch lust (0.32).
Do you seriously think any reasonable player would rather have exhorcism than lust or runes, even if it was for the same price and research time?

Same goes for mage spells vs death knights spells everything humans have orcs have but better / cheaper / faster.

Unless you can bring something to the table that is an actual fact that is measurable and comparable not just statements this wont go anywhere.

I honestly think that keeping an open mind is important, I am ok with the idea that we all could be wrong for so long, but I am not just buying opinions without facts and repeatable or calculable evidence to back them up.
Undeniable facts that would be big enough to overcome the ones I just gave you.

If no facts are given it just is a matter of belief and this usually does not go anywhere.

already proved orcs need more wood then humans tier 1 there for need more workers gold is a easier resource to get so hu can get the extra gold faster then orcs can get the extra wood ... so not needing wood in tier 1 for humans lets them tech faster ... i dont see what is so hard to understand? what do i need to prove to you do you need screen shots of how much the upgrades cost?

are you serious? so lets play a game 12v2 human vs orc, peonstop 9 peons, orc got advanced cause he need less gold for upg,


one peon will get 300 gold or 100 wood , go try it, set low sets make 1 peon 0 gold 0 wood and try get lvl 2 weapon, which race will be faster orc or human?

who are you? are u tier2 player?

[Cel]

@easycompany LOL oops sorry I puked.

Yet again.

As I explained before I don't see why denying it.
Hell even when you remove speed of the equation numbers do not back the fact that speed is the only factor that makes orcs stronger.

In any case if you really want to deny it, have some real solid proof that overcomes all these facts piled up for 20 years of knowledge about the game but that I doubt may ever happen.

Just because slowing down the speed makes humans suck a little less does not mean they do not suck when the speed factor is removed, speed is just ice on the cake.

Now if your point is to say that the imbalances are not game breaking then we agree.
Humans can definitely be played vs orc and win, they just are straight out weaker and speed is not the only factor behind that fact.

And if you disagree then show us what you think constitute advantages that humans have when you remove the speed factor over orcs and that are big enough to compensate the ones I described before.

No @Warbux you havent given us any proof just things you believe in.
The only differences in prices are for weapon upgrades and spell upgrades nothing else <= this is a fact.
A fact and it fucks them up in low res on maps like POS a 100% I already said why and that also is a fact because its just simple math here.

You seem to believe you can achieve things better as a human than as an orc so share with us your build order as a human that an orc cannot execute the same nor have a similar build order that achieves the same thing you said humans need less workers to click up and be ready to take advantage of that juicy tier 2. You should be able to prove that statement.

Give us your detailed build order including all peons and what they are sent to do and where you think that big advantage happen.
And it still has to account for all these imbalances we enumerated that are still there when the speed is not taken into account.

Otherwise this is just not good enough.

[Cel]

No one said the game makers were idiots, no one said the races have to be balanced for the game to be fun to play or interesting either.

As a matter of fact one could argue imbalances create less linear more interesting game play.

But even if the balance really was a problem to fix time has its effect and we know way more about the game and how it is played than even they knew back in these days.

No matter how smart you are you will never be able to guess everything people will come up with a game like this.
Also think about this:
Before war2 there was no comparable multiplayer experience out there, it just was not a thing, war2 invented worldwide multiplayer for rts games.

Everyone know how multiplayer and large scale testing really is necessary to reveal balance flaws these days why do you think it does not apply to warcraft 2?

[Warbux]

well i thin only way were going to be able to prove this is if were able to actually play alot of games in faster and no 1 is gonna play those games because they are not use to playin on a faster speed they are goin to stick to what they know.. unless we have ladder an iron man back which your forced to play on faster an id like to host ladder or iron man games.. i spoke to il an hes gonna do somethign for it but itll take some time but a new ladder system will come sooner or later an will see then .. thx for your input bud

[tk[as]]

the fact that this is beong discussed shows lack of war2 understanding .. its been known for over 20 years that orc are superior .. its not gonna change now.

[shesycompany]

i can see a pro human taking out alot of average lust orcs..idk about pro vs pro

i think humans are better on sea.

[Cel]

Just like lowering the game speed playing maps where abusing the advantages orcs have is harder will make that advantage smaller but it does not remove it.
The only reason u8 will beat you 10 times out of 10 on a water map with humans is not because humans are stronger than orcs its because he is better than you.

Now saying there is a handicap does not mean that handicap is game breaking it is a small handicap especially on water maps, the stronger player will always win.

Numbers are numbers on paper orcs win that is what it is.
If you take the cost vs power efficiency of their spells while not even taking into account their ease of use orcs are more potent and are cheaper/faster.

Slowing down the game, though it will affect the ease of use, wont affect the fact that human spells still are more expensive for a weaker effect than their orcs counterparts.

Numbers just are very bad for humans in addition to that ease of use problem.

There is just no area where numbers are better for humans.

Now I understand you want to believe there are, its cool.

Your point seems to be that yes their spells suck, but they have one advantage that is the costs difference on the weapons upgrades and that for you really goes in favor of humans.
I already gave you an example when that actually is a real advantage for orcs (POS low = 2 more grunts for orcs out of that starting mine) and I do not need a pro player to be able to understand that it is a measurable advantage.

Now if that advantage you are talking about is real, given how big and measurable the orc advantages are it should not be hard for you to demonstrate the human counterpart you are talking about.

You say they can afford to get keep quicker than orcs with less workers.

Give us a build order where you believe that human advantage shows up something you believe is not doable faster/better playing as an orc.
Since you believe it overcomes the obvious other flaws humans have it shouldn't be hard to make it a very obvious and clear example.

If you can't come up with an example I am sorry but maybe there is a reason for it maybe you could be wrong.

You see, I am not asking you to be able to play super good you do not need to be super good to create / describe a build order and demonstrate what it can achieve no one asked you to play it and win with it against a pro player.
If there is indeed such an advantage for humans it should transpire just as easily as the ones orcs have.
Especially since you say it makes both race balanced when the game speed is lower.

Just prove your point don't be that guy who comes and says everyone was wrong before him without actually backing his own claims.

[Lone]

Bloodlust on F is a choice, a style, an option, but not a game winning advantage for evenly skilled players. In most cases people who rely on bloodlust will actually get stomped by people who do not even build altar or play humans.

I don't remember the exact number, but blizzard does about twice as much damage damage to units as DnD. This coupled with invisibility gives humies an edge over orcs on a map, where lusted ogres are not the main way to control the map. So on a map where there are good defensive options, due to having fewer paths to take and having choke points that mages can hold. If on a map, the orc cannot force the human to stay on/inside 1-2 base(s), invisibility will be better than haste.

Humans are at least even, but I think better than orcs on any speed on HSC classic/BNE. Bloodlust is not a big deal when ogres are getting blizzed the moment they hit the shore.

On classic gow ef, you should only play humans if you want a weaker player to be more challenging/fun to beat. There is no build order or resource difference due to the lvl 1 weapons upgrade that would give humies any kind of edge.

[Swift]

Humans are arguably better than orcs on BNE Gow / High / F in a 1vs1

[Warbux]

Bloodlust on F is a choice, a style, an option, but not a game winning advantage for evenly skilled players. In most cases people who rely on bloodlust will actually get stomped by people who do not even build altar or play humans.

I don't remember the exact number, but blizzard does about twice as much damage damage to units as DnD. This coupled with invisibility gives humies an edge over orcs on a map, where lusted ogres are not the main way to control the map. So on a map where there are good defensive options, due to having fewer paths to take and having choke points that mages can hold. If on a map, the orc cannot force the human to stay on/inside 1-2 base(s), invisibility will be better than haste.

Humans are at least even, but I think better than orcs on any speed on HSC classic/BNE. Bloodlust is not a big deal when ogres are getting blizzed the moment they hit the shore.

On classic gow ef, you should only play humans if you want a weaker player to be more challenging/fun to beat. There is no build order or resource difference due to the lvl 1 weapons upgrade that would give humies any kind of edge.

when ya on ima whisper u an have u check sumthin out ina game an get ur input on it .. i wana show u what i mean by hu are faster

[baRa]

Humans are the bomb. Everyone knows they arent balanced with orc. This entire game is messed up and bugged all over the place. Such as tower bugs, freezing gryphons, freezing units on patrol etc etc.

I think all these imperfections make the game, well, perfect!

[Cel]

Not sure?
Try it yourself! make yourself a test map run it multiple time count exactly how much damage difference there are between the two spells in all your runs and make an average.

Based on my empirical testing here is what it looks like:

d&d does 40% more damage to farms and towers than blizzard and that is very significant d&d will kill farms that blizzard does not.

Blizzard does about 20% more damage to ogres but it also is way more randomly distributed than d&d meaning 5 cast on a pack of ogres will not damage all of them just a bunch of them.
It means a lot of the dealt damage is wasted if the shards do not perfectly hit the ogres, and that is a lot more random with blizzard than d&d.

It is also worth mentioning that an ogre or knights standing directly under a cast of either spell wont survive its full duration.

Also a hasted d&d on a pack of ogre will kill them faster than a blizzard and will cost way less magic than multi-casting.
Both races can multicast it is not a human thing.

I think any honest and somewhat reasonable player would always rather have haste than invisibility the spell is just cheaper faster to research and can be used in a wider range of situations, it is just a stronger spell.
With invisibility you can sneak a mage and kill some peons mining can't you do exactly the same with hasted dks? Wont that hasted dk do even more damages?
Ever tried using invisibility to blast a pack of 9 ogres by surprise? Well it works with a hasted dk humans can't compete on that part either.

How often can you use Invisibility? It costs 200 magic to use, it is just as much as polymorph or two death coils, 4 haste, it is worth 8 casts of blizzard...
A mage starts up with 85 mana meaning you have to wait a looong time before you can use that spell, you do not have to wait for haste and it will not have to wait long to use it again.
Sure invisibility looks cool and is fun to play and watch or use but it does not have the impact haste has it just is not as effective.

On hsc transports are fast, what are the odds you will be able to stop a transport with a hasted dk instide to kill your peons/farms/towers?
Also a good thing to note on hsc late game people tend to "slow mine" with only a few expandable peons what do you think hurts them more in that situation a hasted dk killing their farms and buildings or a mage killing these few mining peons :-)

So no Humans are not at least even they are straight bad! Very very very bad!

If you still want to argue blizzard is not inferior to d&d I will leave it as an equal but keep in mind the rest looks like this:

heal < lust or runes
exhorcism < lust or runes
slow < haste (same price)
invisibility < haste (cheaper and  free if you already spent that to get your slow counterpart, 2 spells in one)
polymorph  < coil (It is better and it is free vs 2k gold 200 ticks to research)
ballistats < catapults (no loading / reloading time before shooting)

^all of the above I have backed with detailed explanation before and proper comparisons.

I dont even bother mentioning the other human spells because they are just not even worth using.
On top of that orcs have unholy armor and whirlwind that do have a use in game.

And just like Lone said there is no advantage for that cost difference on the weapon upgrade if anything it is a disadvantage on maps where the gold is even more rare like POS low.
Gold is just that more valuable than lumber in almost all maps except for water maps when you go water big time in which case your are most likely to never get that upgrade anyways.


The only advantage humans have is for the marksmanship upgrade vs trolls regeneration that no one ever does anyway because it is not worth getting in the first place.
But there it is here is your big humans advantage: marksmanship!


So yeah game is not balanced, humans suck and honestly no one cares because the imbalances are not game breaking, you can still win as humans and most strategies can be played with them with fairly the same result and if they were played by an orc.

Conclusion just like baRa said the fact that humans are weaker than orcs is a fact and is in itself it is fun, it makes them challenging and a good way to play with a handicap against weaker players.
Since the game does not have a handicap mechanic like warcraft 3 or other games have it is one way to make that happen.

Just because you want to believe in something does not make it true if you want to convince people it is true, back your claims with undeniable facts and evidences.
Prove your claims don't just say they are at least even without double checking your facts.

Here ill even go ahead and attach a test map for you to try blizzard vs d&d for yourself.
 

[Cel]

People claiming blizzard does about twice the damage of d&d only count the damage dealt by both spells on a unit standing directly under the shards or directly under the decay explosions.

If you want to compare the two spells you have to take the whole square in which the spells are effective because as I mentioned, blizzard is much more randomly distributed than d&d and that means the odds of actually hitting your targets are much lower so you have to take that whole picture that is why you need to count the damages done to all units within the area not just the ones directly under the shards.

The question then is for 25 mana how much damages do you do in that whole area on units for both spells.

How often have you used blizzard and watch in disbelief the shards landing all around the target but not on it?
Say you are lucky the shards do land on that ogre how long do you think he will stand there on that specific position and take it in the face?

At least with d&d you are more likely to hit your target multiple time and even as they run through it. It is more reliable.

But yes blizzard still does a bit more damages to units in the average cases on the other hand d&d does 40% more damage to farms and towers that is not just a bit more...

And honestly at that point to counter the other advantages orcs have blizzard might just as well be free and really do twice the damages d&d does with a twice as fast casting time that would be something.

I wish blizzard did twice the damages d&d does when I play humans .

@Sepi this is hard trolling at this point lol.

[Cel]

I guess it is not trolling you are right, who the heck needs facts when we can have an honest opinion

My god Sepi and Warbux and all of you, I understand now, I believe you!
You guys totally changed my mind!
We all were completely fooled for 20 years damn you are so right numbers mean nothing facts are completely irrelevant.

Next time I play humans I will rush exorcism without making peasants because I don't need them and I will kill everyone with it!

Dang @Szwagier I cant wait to see you dominate all tournaments this year with your lightning fast human build orders and exorcism / blizzard plays we are totally not trolling here we are right and for 20 years you all were wrong!

And also remember you do not need as many peasants!

You have to trust me on this one because it is now my opinion