Lets talk combat edition, spells a and balance!

[Cel]

retarded.

CRITICAL THINKING - Fallacies: Ad Hominem [HD] - YouTube

[Cel]

I could be wrong my argumentation could have flaws and / or  maybe you could have missed my point. I will go for the later in that case.

Before you make yourself look like a fool make sure you understand what you are reacting to before actually reacting to it.

Here is the point I think you missed:

I already said that whether the blizzard / d&d thing was a myth or not both ways support my point. My point being blizzard is not better than d&d as I was answering someone saying blizzard was better than d&d.
Well according to that source it is not more than according to you, as you said literally these are exactly the same spells, so my point still stands tyvm.

Which seems to be what you wanted to say that both blizzard and d&d are perfectly balanced so you are basically insulting me for defending exactly the same idea as you.
 

In any case,
You attacking my person is not really going anywhere and as such you are welcome to shut your mouth or find something to say that actually may be more interesting to read than series of pointless insults, because I will ignore these plain and simple.

There is nothing stupid about stating facts or opinions even when they are wrong or flawed every civilized person can be wrong on any matter once in a while.

Monkeys yell at each other and punch each others when they disagree, I do not hate monkeys I just don't waste my time arguing or talking with them though.
 

[shesycompany]

gd dudes get to hacking war2! i wanna see some productivity

[Lambchops]

I did a few tests, just out of interest. Didn't run it enough times to be statistical proof, but the appearance I saw was something like:

Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

In this way the damage from d&d will tend to be more regular ... it will be spread out the damage more evenly over the area, so seems to have a slightly higher rate of completely destroying smaller/low-HP targets, but in every test I did, Blizz dealt more total damage to the area.

The difference was less than what I thought it was before doing this test. The 2 spells seem slightly different, but pretty well balanced.


-- edit --

This was only done on buildings....  BTW the myth/rumor I heard years ago was that blizz does more damage to buildings but d&d does more damage to mobile units, but idk how true that is.

[shesycompany]

mm im seeing  d&d does more dmg to units than buildings.

it depends on the angle u use the spell also

[Cel]

Lets cut all that bullshit. Why don't we all try for ourselves?

I just made a simple map for testing that easily for yourself and also for myself because clearly people have theories on sensible differences between d&d and blizzard on units/buildings.

I ran this map (attached file) multiple times and tried for myself all I can say is on all my runs I haven't seen much difference at all if there is one maybe d&d did kill on average more farms than blizzard sometimes both spells will leave all farms alive on my runs most of the time d&d killed 1 or 2 farms but its probably just random.

I always stopped the cast after the same number of casts for both spells 5 for buildings 2 for units and I always casted the spell on the same tile relatively from the same relative position.

Now you say it is better for units? How much more damage are we talking about exactly because on my end it does not look very different.

Try it for yourself and if you do not trust my map make your own tests maybe I should record this on video pick the life of every unit and buildings to count exactly how much damage was done?

Launch it with default settings you will get both mages and dks and will be able to try both spells subsequently the way you want to, if there is such a big difference that really made blizzard better against units or whatever it should be very visible shouldn't it?

Otherwise we are talking very very minor differences that are not worth mentioning in the first place don't we?

[shesycompany]

well d&d is the better center cast spell , blizz looks like it needs to be top'd left some

im sure theres some kind a square 9x9 pattern and blizz almost always looks like it will middle down right before spreading ..were as d&d is spreading at the start

well why ya know better results this time around!

but i would still rather have teh d&d spread in a real war2 game..all those orcs are red and dead 1 more hit.

2 cast  stop and 2 cast again  ...what people could be seeing is a mage is to not click on a building but to cast top left of it...maybe

mage clearly wins on its cast in this pic of barraks, its just how your lined up and a building cast is gonna make it cast top lefted... so screwing the dk it looks like.

the mage pattern is more to the middle down right i see it now...is it a big thing no..a base hit id go with 2+ of each unit anyhow 

--and final conclusion = mage for barracks  / dks for farms most of the time and dks for units

[Lambchops]

Both blizz and d&d do repeating amounts of random damage over an area. Blizz does more damage per 'hit' but d&d hits more times.

This is not true. blizzard does 11 waves of iceshards, and death n decay does 11 waves of roses or whatever those are called.

Ok. Are you sure that's the damage and not just the graphics? IDK really that was just a guess based on observing the results.

Another possibility would be blizzard having a much larger random damage range...

something like:

d&d  =  50 - 100 damage ( average   75  )
blizz =   5  - 200 damage ( average 102.5)
( *not real numbers just an example* )

So blizz would still have higher damage overall, but d&d has more chance of evenly distributing it over the area.

Lets cut all that bullshit. Why don't we all try for ourselves?

I just made a simple map for testing ...

Yeah I did a similar thing, only i gave some of the buildings 10x the HP then multicast with 9 mages / dks
that way the effect is averaged out over 9 casts at once.

Also if you make the target units your own, then you can quantify the exact number of HP done.

[shesycompany]

great now we can work on a slow/flameshield vs lust  ...after all these years.
lust  was always just noob use.

[Cel]

Ok so I ran this map I used only one cast of blizzard and one cast of d&d on 3x3 patch of farms subsequently targetted on the bottom right of the middle farm so that blizzard and d&d are nicely centered on the patch and all damages are contained.
Then I added up the damages dealt by that one cast on every farm touched:
Mages total damages for 1 blizzard cast on farms:
307, 221, 300, 256 = 271 on average
Dk total damages for 1 d&d cast on farms:
378, 381, 382, 373 = 378 average
So on average we have 39% more damage for d&d so far but hey that is just a start the more we do the more accurate we are right so I will continue also I encourage you to try it yourself.

Oh and yeah it seems damages are a bit better on units now so far too (for blizzard) but I need to give ogies more hp because they die and it means we need more hp to know exactly how much damages was done so I will do that I thus gave them 1000hp to make the calculation more precise and will redo my testing for units.

I wasn't able to tell the difference without adding up the numbers.
Also it seems blizzard damages on farms are more spread we have up to 7 farms that took damage for blizzard (numbers are very small but it varies around 20) where d&d tend to damage up to 4 farms consistently with bigger numbers minimum seen so far was 65 where the minimum for blizzard was 15 on that round of tests.

I encourage you to try it for yourself here is the last version of my testing map I use only the first row and second row's 4 first ogre patches for the testing so that all damages are contained.

[~oE~]

If anything should be fixed its the tower bug. That shit is totally unfair.

Leave everything else alone...Nups be nups

[Cel]

Tower bug exists because of the way the engine works on a 2x2 building the projectile and range is calculated from the top left tile and range are calculated from that tile, unfortunately this cannot really be fixed easily especially since we do not have the source code and this is not just changing a value there but the way it works :/

Though players have learned to play with it and it is not really breaking the balance between the races (both have same towers) nor is it breaking the balance of power between units in the tech tree too much, it does make rushing towers a bit more worth it in given situations.
But it is nothing compared to how much of a no-brainer lust is.

So yeah if there was an easy known way to fix this bug I guess people wouldn't be against it.

[~oE~]

Ya thats fair. Sucks it probably cannot be fixed. To me the point is that the damage values and cost of certain abilities (mostly human) that are largely irrelevant/unfair is still something that was intended and thus should remain in the game. The tower bug most definitely was not intended so it would be cool if it could be fixed.

[Cel]

Well yes the balance is already close to perfection.
Perfect balance would be achieved when all spells and all units have a use in competitive play where all that amazing tech tree is worth getting and is effectively used in different situations.

You see, as the game is right now if you try playing with lust disabled you will notice that games can even become a bit more interesting and strategic as they do not reach that big power spike, we see more sappers more runes more dks and dragons many different options that are very much overshadowed by the power of lust otherwise.

Lust really is a fun spell and I would not want it to be weaker because it really was designed to be strong, but I would like it if it required a bit more brain power and planning for when to use it because  right now ogres can be always lusted up and it offers no room for counter-play and it is devastating a lusted army will always be lusted there is no stopping no down time no drawback.

And that is why I feel we could while keeping lust a very strong spell make it a little bit less of a no-brainer, so that we get a bit of all of these other strategies back and more windows of opportunities or counter-play for more exotic moves and hard to pull off strategies to pay off.

The balance of the game was barely ever touched the game is already pretty fairly balanced yes but there is room to improve it without de-naturing the game or changing any mechanics.

Think about it, every bit of the tech tree used that means instead of big patches or lusted ogies in every games we would have some lusted ogres yes but also room for some sappers, some runes, some humans, heal / exorcism / church even skeletons if we manage to give them a little bit of utility back.

This would be even more entertaining than it already is and amazing to commentate and watch and advertise.

I don't want to change any mechanics or way spells were designed to work because nostalgia is such a big part of that game, most people remember what heal could be used on and what it did they don't remember how bad it was though or how much it healed or cost, tweaking some numbers a bit to try and encourage more of the tree to be used could really be a nice thing.

People love to see these spells used, think about how excited we all are when we see skeletons,or flameshields or heals these spells are so cool and they bring back memories too.

Tricky moves being executed are exciting, we could have a little bit more of these without making lust useless or changing any unit mechanics or spells one bit.
Tweaking mana costs and improve the comfort of use of some spells there and there (heal working like ex for example) these kind of things.

We are talking changes that the average warcraft 2 viewer wont notice at first glance unless he pays close attention to the numbers.

[Winchester]

I think Exorcism being able to hit Ogre Mages could be interesting. I get that it only effects undead units but Ogres equivalent is runes which can damage almost everything. Could maybe lower the damage on non undead units so it wouldn't become too overpowered on water maps. If not, maybe a gold reduction for the research since 2000 gold for exorcism is more of an investment that's harder to get back on then Runes seeing how it targets only certain units and not most like runes.