Is communism good or bad?

[Igognito]

Lol it took 3-4 times for the forum to allow me post that :-D

[3bdushakur]

Setting up the ground with simple sentences...
We agree on the following:

Islam + Capitalism are compatible within the religious restrictions.
Islam + Democracy are completely incompatible.

Not that it is important, but can we agree on: Pope was comparable with the Caliph but is not anymore.

We need to clarify better why
Islam + Communism are incompatible.

We need to open Christianity and Communism (this is complicated and to be addressed later)
Polytheistic religions are not necessary inferior from Monotheistic. Hinduism is one of the most advance religions (if not the most advance) and possibly the oldest thriving religion in the world (historians are not certain if Judaism or Hinduism is older). None of the religions I mentioned I would call it corrupt. All of them are pretty big religions (being in the 10 biggest).

To return to the topic in hand: Islam + Communism are incompatible.
Reason: by my personal opinion the problem is that normally Communism is the opposite of authoritarian (ignore the applications of it).
Normally in communism there are no rulers or special social classes.

Islam, Christianity and other religions have the: Clergy which by definition is a pyramid structured authoritarian system.
I believe this is the hidden reason why Communism cant work with most societies.

We should first abolish the authoritarian systems and society and only after that we can apply communism. (Personally, I'm in complete favor of removing authoritarian systems, but I'm still against on introducing communism but that is another discussion.)

To return to the main topic: Is communism good or bad?
I believe that Communism can only be applied on a society with 0 authoritarianism and where all are at equal ground. It is based on Utopian principles and Communism is bound to fail as would Anarchism. But in a small society (such as a family) communism is the ideal system to work with!

The small society develops better if they do not compete against them but instead collaborate; all are richer if everything is owned by everyone and not having individual wealth in a small society: This is also the basis of Nash Equilibrium which by all irony is used in Capitalism.

Simple example: When you where a kid, did your family owned a car? Was it your fathers? or your mothers? or maybe was it from/for both? Maybe, when you got a licence was it your car too... That is communism, everything is owned by everyone. We do not have individual properties... The idea is great just not applicable in large society.

What is it about Hinduism that makes you think it's advanced? The worship of rats, menses blood, phallic worship, ancestor worship, saint worship, feeding idols, worshipping cows as god, dancing around idols...? I grew up in a predominantly Hindu neighborhood, and I have been to Hindu and Buddhist temples, and I have a friend that left Hinduism and filled me in on some of their practices....so, what is advanced about any of this?

As for its age, it is irrelevant. The above mentioned is blatant corruption of understanding and sensibility. Regardles on what list was made by whoever to rank the worlds top religions. It doesn't matter. The Bhagavad Gita, which is the only book I recall reading regarding Hinduism, was definitely an interesting story, but that's as far as it goes.

We do not have clergy in Islam. Each masjid has an Imaam who leads the prayer and teaches the people (or is supposed to). In the house, the man is the imaam, the imaam is a leader of a congregation or a family. The Khalifah can be imaam or can follow an imaam. There is no clergy in Islam...again, it would make sense if you knew about Islam and understood it as it was understood by the Companions of the Prophet, otherwise you apply incompatible terminology which only confuses your understanding and prevents you from clear vision.

Also, by definition, clergy is not a pyramid structuredauthoritarian system. Clergy is defined as

the body of all people ordained for religious duties, especially in the Christian Church.
"all marriages were to be solemnized by the clergy"

This does not exist in Islam.

Getting rid of an authoritarian system will only plunge society in chaos. The hierarchy is needed otherwise you give power to the ignorant and foolish. Leadership is needed. Some people are leaders and some are followers, everyone is not fit or equipped for the role of leader, especially of men. This is why revolutions fail and spread corruption and chaos. Because they seek to overthrow the ruling party with the same pretext, and it's all pretext.

If you got rid of authority, you would instantly regret it when you realize that not everyone has honorable intentions, and the wolves come out to hunt freely. And if you are from among the followers, unable to protect yourself or your family, then you become prey. You would be plunged back into the age of nomads and pillagers.

And this is where the utopian fantasy of Communism comes into play. Until Ghengis Khan 10,0 and his technologically advance army come and murder and rape you all with no shred of remorse. Taking your system and burning it to the ground.

That little fantasy will not save you from the ravenous nature of a corrupted army of nomads. Sure, it sounds great if you deny your own nature. But imagine, if Communists and Capitalists become corrupt within their own systems, and those withing religious institutions also become corrupt and justify their crimes in the name of religion, what would happen without a system of authoritarianism?

Forget your little quaint family analogy, let's look at it like this:

We abolish Capitalism and authoritarian government (the legitimate ones because you can't control criminals), no more borders, munincipalities, police, army, right? Cool, now, ISIS begins to import itself into open territory while you are setting up your little commune hoping everyone is your friend. Then the MS-13 come in, and the Zetas, and the Paramilatary Militias, and the Right Wing Militias, and rapists and murderers, thieves and all sorts of vile scum begin to pollute youre sweet little vision of Communist Utopia because, "To hell with Authoritarianism".

You can never achieve that, ever, no ideology will save you from the savage nature of man. Look at the indigenous peoples of South America, lived in commune like settings until the Spanish came and what did they do? Slice of their noses and ears to make jewlery, regardless of their system, the point is the factor of human nature.

Everybody owns everything until the mightiest monopolizes it, builds a strong army of the wicked and the sheep are slaughtered for even looking the wrong way.

It's fun to be an idealist because it requires less work than to look at the world realistically. It's like a security blanket, I know,

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

capitalism isn't efficient and doesn't work for the majority of humanity. i don't advocate the killing of wealthy people, like your ideas are directly responsible for poverty. i advocate the efficient reallocation of wealth distribution, creating a society of people with their basic needs met. this won't happen in capitalism because there is no efficient allocation of wealth in capitalism, it's all puddled at the top of the social stratum. it moves from the bottom to the top, opposite of trickle down theory. it stays at the top where occasional crumbs will leak through.

[3bdushakur]

capitalism isn't efficient and doesn't work for the majority of humanity. i don't advocate the killing of wealthy people, like your ideas are directly responsible for poverty. i advocate the efficient reallocation of wealth distribution, creating a society of people with their basic needs met. this won't happen in capitalism because there is no efficient allocation of wealth in capitalism, it's all puddled at the top of the social stratum. it moves from the bottom to the top, opposite of trickle down theory. it stays at the top where occasional crumbs will leak through.

I don't care about Capitalism or Communism, Shari'ah Law is superior to any Western Ideology. Islam is superior to all other religions. Shari'ah Law addresses the issues, you are concerned with and beyond, it regulates the excesses of Capitalist culture.

Allah Says:

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it). [9:33]

Allah has already nipped your arguments in the bud:

And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery![18:56]

This is the statement of Truth and everything else is falsehood, be it Communism, Capitalism, Anarchy, Socialism, Democracy, Plutocracy, Authocracy, Monarchy, etc etc etc.

The only legitimate Law is the Law of Allah.

[Igognito]

The only legitimate Law is the Law of Allah.

(Assuming that Allah exists) Which was written down and interpreted by people...

You made a lot of statements from my last post and the discussion is losing its track.
For that reason I will try to ignore the statements and only focus on the topic at hand: Is communism good or bad?

As usual, a thread with a topic like that cant reach to a conclusion.
Lets say the only conclusion we have reached is that Communism is less applicable to large societies.

ps: For other topics opened I will use other more appropriate threads.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

capitalism isn't efficient and doesn't work for the majority of humanity. i don't advocate the killing of wealthy people, like your ideas are directly responsible for poverty. i advocate the efficient reallocation of wealth distribution, creating a society of people with their basic needs met. this won't happen in capitalism because there is no efficient allocation of wealth in capitalism, it's all puddled at the top of the social stratum. it moves from the bottom to the top, opposite of trickle down theory. it stays at the top where occasional crumbs will leak through.

I don't care about Capitalism or Communism, Shari'ah Law is superior to any Western Ideology. Islam is superior to all other religions. Shari'ah Law addresses the issues, you are concerned with and beyond, it regulates the excesses of Capitalist culture.

Allah Says:

It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it). [9:33]

Allah has already nipped your arguments in the bud:

And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery![18:56]

This is the statement of Truth and everything else is falsehood, be it Communism, Capitalism, Anarchy, Socialism, Democracy, Plutocracy, Authocracy, Monarchy, etc etc etc.

The only legitimate Law is the Law of Allah.

oh shariah law regulates capitalist excesses does it? hmm, it doesn't seem to do that very well in Abu Dhabi or for the monarchy in Saudi Arabia

[3bdushakur]

The only legitimate Law is the Law of Allah.

(Assuming that Allah exists) Which was written down and interpreted by people...

You made a lot of statements from my last post and the discussion is losing its track.
For that reason I will try to ignore the statements and only focus on the topic at hand: Is communism good or bad?

As usual, a thread with a topic like that cant reach to a conclusion.
Lets say the only conclusion we have reached is that Communism is less applicable to large societies.

ps: For other topics opened I will use other more appropriate threads.

"Assuming"? This is a positiong held onto by the minority.

Anyway, the reason I wrote that was as a conclusion. Communism is obsolete and inferior.

[3bdushakur]

@marx was right

The Monarchy system is not a part of the Shari'ah, that is a bad argument. Shari'ah rulership is based on a Khilafah under a Khalifah, that is the true Islamic leadership under Shari'ah.

The Monarchy is the result of Arab tribalism, I am talking about religious rule, not Arab rule. The first Khilafah was under Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم and the last was under the companion 'Ali, from the four Rightly guided Khulafah (Abu Bakr As-Saddiq, Umar Ibnul Khattab, Uthman bin Affan and then Ali, may Allah be pleased with them). Since these four men, there has not been a Khulafah on the face of the earth. It has been Monarchs and Sultans and though they were and are legitimate Rulers, these positions are not legislated by the Shari'ah.

As related, in the hasan hadeeth found in Jami at-Tirmidhi no. 2226:

Sa'eed bin Jumhan narrated: "Safinah narrated to me, he said: 'The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "Al-Khilafah will be in my Ummah for thirty years, then there will be monarchy after that."' Then Safinah said to me: 'Count the Khilafah of Abu Bakr,' then he said: 'Count the Khilafah of 'Umar and the Khilafah of 'Uthman.' Then he said to me: 'Count the Khilafah of 'Ali."' He said: "So we found that they add up to thirty years." Sa'eed said: "I said to him: 'Banu Umaiyyah claim that the Khilafah is among them.' He said: 'Banu Az-Zarqa' lie, rather they are a monarchy, among the worst of monarchies."'

This does not exist today, and will not exist until the Mahdi appears (which will be close to the Final Hour, the time of which only Allah Knows), anyone today claiming to be the Khalifah of the Muslims (such as the kharijites from among the present day terrorist groups) are merely criminal imposters. The Ottoman Empire was a Sultinate, and prior to that it was systems of Monarchy. Today that system of Monarchs continues along with Presidents, Prime Ministers and so forth. All titles foreign to Islam and Shari'ah (but the rulership, regardless of how corrupt it may be, is still legitimate and must be obeyed).

Abu Dhabi and Sa'udiyyah are bad examples. The reason Sa'udiyyah is percieved as the main Muslim country (out of all of them) is because that is the land of Makkah and Madinah, regardless of the rulership and the system they have established, they promote and fund Islamic schools, and the "King"'s actual title is "The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques".

Their Monarch system does not remove them from Islam nor does it open the door to revolt and overthrow. They are a legitimate kingdom. Same as in America, the Muslim is obligated to follow the Law of the Land so long as the Law does not directly prevent them from practicing their religion, and as far as I'm concerned, America does not oppress Muslims by preventing them from practicing their religion. We are free to pray, fast, give charity, make Hajj, and teach the religion, build masaajid (mosques) and grow our beards and wear hijabs and niqabs and generally look like Muslims. So those Muslims who go out and protest and revolt and march and hold demonstrations are the worst examples to use.

The Palestinians lost their land to Israel by the deeds of their own doing and for straying from the religion and its correct understanding . And because of this, a corrupt nation has usurped the land. Still, protesting and screaming like animals on the street will not change a thing which makes all that effort pointless and only tarnishes their religion. And besides, those protesters are usually lead by Ikwaanis (people who follow the terrorist methodology of The Muslim Brotherhood...that was established by Sayyid Qutb who adopted Marxist ideology). This doesn't mean all those Muslims are terrorists, it just means that many of them are ignoramuses that lack knowledge of their religion and blindly follow people from their wayward emotions.

The reason I mention this was incase this was brought up as an argument at any point.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

israeli apologist too... this guy is a piece of work.

[3bdushakur]

israeli apologist too... this guy is a piece of work.

Where did you get that from?!

I stated a fact based on the conditions of the Muslims, not in defence of Israel, are you this dense?

The Jews have upon them the Wrath of Allah, and their learned men know this.
As per the hadeeth:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail went to Sham, inquiring about a true religion to follow. He met a Jewish religious scholar and asked him about their religion. He said, "I intend to embrace your religion, so tell me some thing about it." The Jew said, "You will not embrace our religion unless you receive your share of Allah's Anger." Zaid said, "'I do not run except from Allah's Anger, and I will never bear a bit of it if I have the power to avoid it. Can you tell me of some other religion?" He said, "I do not know any other religion except the Hanif." Zaid enquired, "What is Hanif?" He said, "Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)" Then Zaid went out and met a Christian religious scholar and told him the same as before. The Christian said, "You will not embrace our religion unless you get a share of Allah's Curse." Zaid replied, "I do not run except from Allah's Curse, and I will never bear any of Allah's Curse and His Anger if I have the power to avoid them. Will you tell me of some other religion?" He replied, "I do not know any other religion except Hanif." Zaid enquired, "What is Hanif?" He replied, Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)" When Zaid heard their Statement about (the religion of) Abraham, he left that place, and when he came out, he raised both his hands and said, "O Allah! I make You my Witness that I am on the religion of Abraham." - Bukhaari 2837

And the Jews know, as per the ex-Rabbi Abdullah ibnus Salam:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Salam
But he was from the Jews Allah has guided, as for the rest of them, then their fate has been established.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

>The Palestinians lost their land to Israel by the deeds of their own doing and for straying from the religion and its correct understanding

how isn't this a defense of israel you stupid fuck? As if it's Palestinians fault british imperialists carved out a region for a jewish diaspora that eventually removed them from their homes, or that america today uses israel for influence over the middle east while turning a blind eye to israeli crimes against Palestinians.
absolutely nothing that is happening to Palestinians today is their fault. It's the fault of the right-wing lunatic dictatorship of america and israel.

[3bdushakur]

>The Palestinians lost their land to Israel by the deeds of their own doing and for straying from the religion and its correct understanding

how isn't this a defense of israel you stupid fuck? As if it's Palestinians fault british imperialists carved out a region for a jewish diaspora that eventually removed them from their homes, or that america today uses israel for influence over the middle east while turning a blind eye to israeli crimes against Palestinians.
absolutely nothing that is happening to Palestinians today is their fault. It's the fault of the right-wing lunatic dictatorship of america and israel.

And all that was the fault of the Palestinians straying from the religion of Islam.

[3bdushakur]

>The Palestinians lost their land to Israel by the deeds of their own doing and for straying from the religion and its correct understanding

how isn't this a defense of israel you stupid fuck? As if it's Palestinians fault british imperialists carved out a region for a jewish diaspora that eventually removed them from their homes, or that america today uses israel for influence over the middle east while turning a blind eye to israeli crimes against Palestinians.
absolutely nothing that is happening to Palestinians today is their fault. It's the fault of the right-wing lunatic dictatorship of america and israel.

This is the same self-destructive attitude the Muslims picked up from the disbelievers, as Allah says:

Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever of evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you (O Muhammad) as a Messenger to mankind, and Allah is Sufficient as a Witness. [4:79]

Instead of taking account for yourselves and your flaws, you would rather blame the world around you for your current disposition. It's easier and lazier to blame the world around you while failing to blame yourselves for your own corruption. You see the splinter in the eye of another while turning your blind eye, to the timber stuck in it.

[3bdushakur]

@marx was right

Shaykh Muhammad Sa'eed Raslaan (may Allaah preserve him) said:

When will Palestine be returned to us?

When a Muslim in any place in the earth asks, ”When will Palestine be returned to us?” The answer is, ”If you return to Allaah (in correct belief, righteous action, obedience etc.), Palestine will be returned to you.”  This answer is derived from the statement of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم reported by Imaam Ahmad and Abu Dawood on the authority of Thawbaan رضي الله عنه that the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said:

”The nations will soon call one another against you, just as people call one another to eat from a qas'a (i.e. a large plate of food). They asked: ‘’O Messenger of Allaah, is it because we will be few in number at that time? He (sallal-laahu-alayhi-wasallam) replied: No, you will be many in number at that time, but you will be Ghuthaa –(i.e. like the froth scum on the water).  And Allaah will remove from the hearts of the enemies the fear they had for you and will place wahn in your hearts. They said: What is Wahn O Messenger of Allaah? He said: Love of the worldly life and having hatred for death.’’ [Reported by Ahmad 21897 and Abu Daawood 4297. [Declared authentic by  Imaam Albaanee in As-saheehah number: 8183]

If we return to Allaah (in correct belief, righteous actions, obedience etc.), He will returned to us what has been taken away away from us. If we remain distant from Allaah (i.e. distant from the correct creed, righteous actions, obedience etc.), we will lose what is in our hands. And indeed Allaah (The Blessed and Most High) has made this judgement in His Tremendous Book, and He (The Most High) said:

[وَإِذْ تَأَذَّنَ رَبُّكُمْ لَئِن شَكَرْتُمْ لَأَزِيدَنَّكُمْ ۖ وَلَئِن كَفَرْتُمْ إِنَّ عَذَابِي لَشَدِيدٌ ]
”And (remember) when your Lord proclaimed: “If you give thanks (by accepting Faith and worshipping none but Allah), I will give you more (of My Blessings), but if you are thankless, verily! My Punishment is indeed severe.” [Soorah Ibraaheem: Ayah: 7]

He (The Blessed and Most High) clarified that being thankless for blessings bestowed (on us) will cause it to cease…. Our scholars say, ”Blessings are a prey and being thankful (for it) is the thing that makes (it) remain.

[Source:Mataa ta-oodu Ilaynaa Falasteen: page 7-8]

You do not know the affairs of the Muslims or the Palestinians, stop pretending to know and care by blaming others. The Muslims are to blame, and the Jews fate has been decreed by Allah they will abide in the Fire of Hell in the next life, except those that Allah wills to guide. Their final destiny is at the hands of the Muslims, as per the hadeeth found Al-Bukhaari (2926):

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

And this will be when the Final Hour approaches, so it is not the time for this to unfold, this is what has been decreed by Allah and only He Knows when this will manifest.

Oh and before the nonsensical argument of "Anti-Semitism" rears it's illogical head, Islam is the largest Semitic religion in the world and Arabs make up over 90% of the worlds Semites, so that old and tired Jewish argument will not work here.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

i don't care about your mythologies, we're talking about reality which you're detached from.