Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

you can't even follow your own arguments as foonat already pointed out. you get confused easily, and totally don't understand most of the shit you're pretending to understanding. you also are a vile moron who supports slave labour.

lol i'm a vile moron who supports slave labor. I didn't know that. Either way i'm sorry for invading the socialist safe space. Morons who read george hegel and marxist and think that they're intellectuals on economics by reading systems that have been proven faulty time and time again. Ideas are malleable, words are malleable, but reality is not malleable. Now since you've resorted to name calling and the classic liberal shenanigans of accusations with no proof, i will leave you to mourn with each other.

Enjoy your new president.

fucking retard lol. you know nothing about hegel or marx, you haven't read a single word of their works . also a  forum where anyone and everyone can sign up hardly qualifies as a "safe space" you useless goof.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

I see that Yamon is still trying to educate people on here.  In regards to the min wage discussion...  if you want a great example look at the states that just passed higher Min wage laws, then do a search for automated services that McDonalds just announced for testing and roll out to replace those jobs.  If you think min wage increases don't have a direct impact on loss of jobs, maybe you shouldn't look to the politicians propaganda and look at what the businesses that are directly impacted are doing.  When unemployment raises the cost of labor would naturally become lower as the supply of workers has increased.  By have a law/regulation in place min wage, it negates the natural process of supply/demand and restricts the ability to compete or correct that supply.   

this garbage was barely coherent, but it appears to me reminiscent of the useless liberal nonsense bootlickers too stupid to have any class consciousness have parroted for decades.

[Firesand]

Interesting accessment you gathered there.  I'm not surprised by it as you clearly were confused by Yamon's viewpoints.  If you want to bring up class consciousness in relation to minium wage then do so.  I was obviously discussing minium wage based on economics. 

Yet you yourself have already proved that you believe in separating people into a class system by simply labeling people who disagree with you as idiots, stupid, or there opinions don't matter... much like most of the people here do. 

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

There was nothing confusing about what Yamon said , he's a complete drooling moron. I don't even know why you're talking like he laid down some brilliant analysis, kid got rekt and ran off like a little baby but not before grasping at last ditch effort to spew reactionary buzz words like "safe space", in regards to a public forum mind you.

 Your "minimum wage based on economics" horseshit is the basic narrative of the capitalist class. It's largely propaganda. You're talking about automation replacing workers (which has already been happening forever) as if it wasn't going to happen anyways regardless of what the minimum wage is. It's in the capitalists' interests to accumulate as much profit as possible. If a capitalist can replace a worker with a machine that would make him more money and give him more convenience, even if that worker only earns 7 dollars an hour, it'll happen, and has happened.

[chayliss]

clickbait

fuck you

no mention of adam in your post

[RipE[Eur0]]

i just give u a free tip yanks. dont copy what we do here in the eurosocialistland.
i hope trump will start some kinda revolution in da western world together after BREXIT.

[Firesand]

As long as there has been man involved in any system of government the principle of supply and demand exists.  You can't get around it.  Automation happens when technology becomes cheaper than labor.  So how would increasing min wage not support the premise of job loss?  It's not propaganda it's economics.  Even in a system of socialism it's the same you can just substitute money into whatever medium allows more food on the table.  Capitalism isn't the problem, corruption of mankind is. 

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

 if some multi-billion dollar corporation like McDonalds wants to phase out workers with automation because they're too horrible to pay a livable wage to the people that made the company the financial success it is today, that's when workers need to fight for better conditions. i.e. protesting for better wages, or better yet , seizing the means of production and hanging the billionaire scum in the street.
the workers should not accept poverty wages, especially from a company making billions.

[Firesand]

Your answer is to encourage chaos?  Interesting thought process.  You do realize that once the laborers take over they will still have to run the company, which means orginazation, structure, and leadership thus creating the same environment of corruption that exsisted previously.  While labor and the cost of labor affects profits, it most definitely isn't the direct result in a business success.  In a global market how does this company provide longevity to its labor force when it now has higher wages than the competition?  How does this company keep the upper management when a different company offers to pay the "leaders of the revolt" double what they are making now? 

In your ideal system of government... when has it ever worked outside of the books you have read and the theory you have in your head?  The problem with your ideal system is the disconnect from reality.  You have no answers on how to successfully implentment your "ideals" when people don't want to conform to them without using oppression and corruption and still be competitive in the world.  Without that it is only a short term system lacking in the long game and will get crushed.

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

When you believe expelling the oppressors is "encouraging chaos", that says a lot about your own thought process and where you think you stand in class hierarchy.

You do realize that once the laborers take over they will still have to run the company, which means orginazation, structure, and leadership thus creating the same environment of corruption that exsisted previously.

Outside of a capitalist society, if you can imagine, that doesn't value profit over everything, doesn't treat the rich as gods and the poor as subhuman - you know that same attitude that breeds corruption to begin with -  perhaps we all become much less corruptible.

In a global market how does this company provide longevity to its labor force when it now has higher wages than the competition?

When have workers ever been secure in employment? Capitalists have always treated them as disposable commodities

In your ideal system of government... when has it ever worked outside of the books you have read and the theory you have in your head?  The problem with your ideal system is the disconnect from reality.  You have no answers on how to successfully implentment your "ideals" when people don't want to conform to them without using oppression and corruption and still be competitive in the world.  Without that it is only a short term system lacking in the long game and will get crushed.

Worker cooperatives have been proven to be successful over and over again, ever since Robert Owen in the early 19th century.

[Firesand]

Unfortunately, corruption has been around well before capitalism and it is there even in the most successful coops.  I have personal experience involving true cooperatives and I belong to two currently (amalgamated sugar company and Valley Wide Coop).  I utilize a member owned financial institution for my business.  (Farm credit service system).   

While these cooperatives have been successful, many others have failed just like corporations. Internal politics always come into play and human nature has always been the enemy of an equal system.  I do not believe that violence has a role in that type of system, nor can it be used to take away from a capitalist system to be made into a collective system.  I am most definitely not a Marxist as I feel that they lacked the understanding of moral principles and the importance that they have in a government and economic society. 

Workers in a cooperative are just as likely to go bankrupt as corporations.  My point in longevity is the means you used to accomplish your ideal system.  The vast majority of Marxist idealists are only theorist wishing and talking about what could happen.  The knowledge of past societies that have practiced said "ideals" have either failed entirely, or as I said previously are a short term system that gets crushed in the long term because of the lack of moral principles.  When workers have no hope of a better future he ceases to be an asset to the collective whole.

Again the issue here is the implementation of said system.  Without moral principles being taught, human nature will always be lacking and corruption will always take place.  You can't expect a human being to be satisfied with being equal when it is natural for us to judge others.  As I have said before, your ideal concept doesn't exist nor will it ever. 

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

"muh human nature" is just a shitty liberal argument parroted by unthinking dimwits that believe they're anthropologists, yet no real anthropologist would actually agree with them.

worker co-ops are generally superior to regular businesses. better wages, hours and overall working conditions. i mean this is hardly surprising, when the capitalist is eliminated from the workplace you've eliminated conflicting interests with the workers and now you've only got people with equal interests and thus a less hostile and fairer work environment. of course they still are working in a capitalist society and susceptible to its flaws. worker co-ops give only a glimpse of what work under a socialist society could be.

Marxism is hardly idealist, it's an actual science. Marx wrote 1000 pages of economics and was one of the more important classical economists because he had greater knowledge of early industrial capitalism than anyone of his time. No your liberalism is what is idealist.

[Firesand]

You can not have corruption without the human aspect period.  Also being in a cooperative does not eliminate conflict of interests.  How to grow/expand/run the cooperative creates the same hostile environment, especially in years where there aren't profits due to global surpluses.  In essence they have the exact same experiences as a capitalist run business. 

You act as though human behavior is a non factor... yet the very basis of your entire argument is based on human behavior... your entire premise assumes that humans want to be equal does it not?  You can worship Marx if you want to yet his ideas do not have a good track record when they have been implemented.   

[tora is a simp bitch for billionaires]

you keep talking about how human nature is against egalitarianism like some drooling idiot, and neither concepts you have a firm grasp on.

[Firesand]

Yet you dismiss it knowing full well that human behavior is the biggest reason why all attempts of a government implementing ideas from Marx have utterly failed.  I have a very firm grasp of how human behavior, culture, and environment play a role in the building up or tearing down governments or economic societies. 

The reason why your ideal system fails is because it is based on the assumption or theory that the only way for a company to increase profit is through exploiting labor.  This has been proven wrong so many times it has actually moved Marxism from a science to a pseudoscience.  His theories have failed being implemented many times and his argument of social revolution that would occur hasn't in more advanced capitalist societies that understood that his theory was complete bullshit. 

The only time his theory has actually came to being even close to working is the formation of cooperatives that typically function using a mix of his ideas with capitalist ideas.  Like I said I belong to a cooperative (amalgamated sugar company) which did just what Marx said would happen.  Being a part of the buyout and working with my peers I can tell you that Marx idea that exploitation of works to extract profit is total and complete bullshit.  Exploitation continues in the coop structure, oppression continues, and the ability to determine what is "equal" among members would be the equivalent of a union negotiating with a company. 

Not only do I understand the theory of Marxism I have also put my mouth and pocket book in actually implementing it.  Point blank his theories are based on antiquated knowledge and science that no longer even applies as the basic assumptions he used in those theories are wrong.  Even fellow marxists can't even agree on those assumptions that he used.  Talking to you is the equivalent of talking to someone who is convinced the world is flat and is pissed off because someone not only has discovered the world is round but has actually sailed it.