How to defend and break a 9/11 dual

[the_magician]

as soon as you scout their 9/11 dual stop peons, tech to stronghold and repair alchemist, once you have 2 goblins and about 12 grunts just raid 11 

[Lone]

Why is counter dual insane? 9/11 has to make 2 gts, probably rep, and won't be able to pump peons at the start especially if he walls of 9 with a rax for some reason.
Where as 4/5 counter dual will be able to pump peons, get a mill/hall without problem. (stop at lvl 2 and 3 grunts)
I'm not even sure if 4/5 can be considerably behind after the start (maybe 2 peons) but even if 4/5 is behind, it'll have the edge in late game. The only way 9/11 can aggressively win the game is if it keeps shutting s5 down (comes down to micro, macro and maphack in your mind ). Otherwise 4/5 can shutdown s9, get an extra exp at s5 (slow mining) and even secure s3. Then other than Swift, Viruz and maybe ST nobody really knows how to play well after taking 3 bases.

[Yamon]

Why is counter dual insane? 9/11 has to make 2 gts, probably rep, and won't be able to pump peons at the start especially if he walls of 9 with a rax for some reason.
Where as 4/5 counter dual will be able to pump peons, get a mill/hall without problem. (stop at lvl 2 and 3 grunts)
I'm not even sure if 4/5 can be considerably behind after the start (maybe 2 peons) but even if 4/5 is behind, it'll have the edge in late game. The only way 9/11 can aggressively win the game is if it keeps shutting s5 down (comes down to micro, macro and maphack in your mind ). Otherwise 4/5 can shutdown s9, get an extra exp at s5 (slow mining) and even secure s3. Then other than Swift, Viruz and maybe ST nobody really knows how to play well after taking 3 bases.

who do i accuse of mapping? and you can make counter-dual work because you are extremely fast, but logically no it's not faster even with all of the shit 9/11 has to do in prepping for the dual. Also the main reason why it doesn't work is 4/5/s5/3 is so easy to dk in comparison to 9/11 and 11 has 5k extra, and it's nearly impossible to dk once blocked with farms. that's something that you overlooked. Garden of war is not a fair map geographically. Just like the real world.

[Lone]

I didn't mean you accused someone of mapping, I meant you can read/predict enemy movements.
I also don't think 11 needs to be dk'd as it won't achieve too much.
S5/S3 should be hard to dk for the same reason as 11 is given that you can set up properly.
9/11 should also be prepared for potential breaks where as 4/5 can be open or scout outrushes in time.
Sadly I don't get many chances to practice these scenarios with evenly skilled or better players, but I really do not think 9/11 just outright wins against a counter dual.
I don't think I'm *extremely* fast... I barely went up to 280 apm vs "Dethwlkr" whoever he is, (plays like a more aggressive Viruz) yet I was rested, prepared, and trying very hard. The real legends used to go above 500 if I'm not mistaken!

[BenJamin]

Ok, when you say 500 apm do you mean at peak or the average over the whole game?

Pretty sure the best war3 players only had average apms of 250 to 350. 

Also szwaiger's apm only fluctuates between 100 to 150 normally so maybe half your actions were unnecessary.

[I hate naggers]

well szwagiers lategame is lackluster, but i agree that 350 apm tops is enough. Also the war2 apm tracker adds about 20-25% of apm comparing to starcraft

[Lone]

I assume peak in their primes because that is just crazy but not beyond imagination. Another reason is that I use hotkey bindings which are not taken into account. For example if you select 9 ogres with mouse, your apm is increased by 9, but if you do it with hotkeys there is no change. I doubt szwagier is THAT slow and it does not mean HALF of my actions are not necessary, it means that when we played a month ago I was rusty and/or often did not get to late game! Also my speed is countered by his experience. Wonder how we would match now. I'm planning to play a lot in January.

[~ToRa~]

I don't think I'm *extremely* fast... I barely went up to 280 apm vs "Dethwlkr"

That's really fast

[tk[as]]

I've never in my life ever heard anyone say counter dualing is a bad idea... either you suck at it, or are just trolling. 

The proof that it works just fine is its extremely common to see 2 players of nearly equal skill playing, one duals, other counter duals, and the counter dualer is at no disadvantage because of it.

[tk[as]]

I don't think I'm *extremely* fast... I barely went up to 280 apm vs "Dethwlkr"

That's really fast

I feel like that's pretty normal for most players.. and a lot of those actions are just wasted clicks that do very little.. like guiding a group of ogres or clicking on a building 2-3 times to anticipate the production of a unit or the building itself..

[~ToRa~]

^^What was your apm on fastest tk?

[BenJamin]

^^What was your apm on fastest tk?

He doesn't focus on high apm because he doesn't want to waste clicks. He just focuses on making farms, peons, and balancing gold and wood peons. That's why he is a war2 teacher and not a player starcraft.

I still don't get how playing drunk improves your game tho.

[tk[as]]

My fastest apm is just over 300.. but a lot of repetitive clicks

[tk[as]]

Alf I hear has low apm.. my apm is much lower when I'm stoned , but I micro very well.. High apm does not = high skill.

[mousEtopher]

I still don't get how playing drunk improves your game tho.

There's a threshold isn't there? Drinking a little (like 1-2 drinks maybe) seems to make you play better, but anything beyond that and it goes straight in the tank.