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General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 31, 2016, 11:59:02 AM »

The H-2A labor rates just came out for the states.  $11.66 per hour with transportation there and back, housing, and a vehicle to use on the job where I live.  Min wage is under $8 but it doesn't matter as the supply and demand for labor merits the $11.66 easily. 

It is laughable that anti capitalists truly believe that the concept of a ruling class would go away if capitalism went away.  It just changes hands but it will always be in the hands of a smaller percent. 

The failure of the USSR... was a failure of the Marxist economics policies.  Regardless if you want to say it was ochrastrated by western operatives or not.  I say this because the collapse happened in our lifetime, it was the smaller counties that revoluted as they were no longer being treated as equal partners. (Obviously this is shorted as there is hundred of books written on it.). Putin himself places the blame on Lenin and how he implemented things.  In the end anti-capitalist or not, that collapse resulted in the worst economic time in there entire history.  The USSR removed the ability of free thinking individuals that threatened or went against them.  They oppressed and ruled there comrades with fear.  It was the exact thing that Marx predicted would happen within that type of society.  That it would fail and return back to barbarism.  Marxisright what would you contribute to the USSR failing?  If it was the west meddling then it would be exactly what I said at the beginning about the ability of humans being corruptible and any system that is equal will always fail because it is the inability of humans to control there wants and desires.  If they could control them then a system that is equal would naturally be the best system... but utopia doesn't exist in the real world.

If you think about labor as supply and demand, the 50's-60's would be after WW2 and there was a huge loss of life throughout the world.  So logically speaking if you want to use the 60's in regards to min wage it would completely support what I was saying.  This is one of the biggest reasons China uses population control due to the work force.  When population gets to the point where the basic needs (food, shelter, water) are unattainable there has always been riots/revolution/war.  This is another reason why china manipulates its currency and controls the prices of food in there country. 

 

2

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 28, 2016, 11:37:56 PM »

I am not an expert in Marx, I know enough about him and his works to have a conversation about him.  I do know enough and have participated in enough cooperatives that I respect the theory he was trying to accomplish.  I do not like people who pretend that Marx did not have a profound influence on many systems that have failed utterly by trying to distance him to what was trying to be accomplished.  I also dislike Marxists who do not live in reality and actually try to work with capitalists to find a better way.  Both systems have flaws, yet one system has found success in many ways while the other hasn't.  The Soviet Union is one of the biggest failures that originated from Karl Marx works.  Any Marxist who deny's that is only making excuses because they don't want that failure to be on Marx.  The sad reality is Marx even stated that a socialst society would eventually fail and go back to barbarism. 

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General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 28, 2016, 10:28:36 PM »

I see how you have gotten 2000 posts... amazing rebuttals.  I mean you should teach a class on how to do it, even charge a fee, just make sure to give it all back to the members you teach.

4

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 28, 2016, 10:03:35 PM »

Karl Marx wrote the communist manifesto which is a political document which you completely ignored in my last comment.  He teamed up with Engels which came from wealth and Engels published 2 of Marx books from his notes after his death.  Marx came from nothing and ended with nothing.  His accomplishments are all theory based which others failed when trying to actually implement them. His work will always fail because point blank humans are going to always fold to greed/curroption/power whatever you want to put there because it is inherent in there behavior.  Karl Marx knew this which is why he addressed human nature in one of his first works. 

Shitty business... what a complete sell out you are when you actually have to discuss real life situations that occur to all businesses period.  You are a total fake.  Karl Marx was at a time when globalization was just starting.  The man never even talked about mass inflation, devaluing of currency, nor any of the many ways business suffer and have no control over.  He was valued in his time until no one could successful do what he wanted.  Yet years later you still worship him yet you bash the founding fathers of America who only lived 50 plus years earlier saying they are out dated. 

Interesting the the founding fathers of a country who used Adam Smith as there economic engine has a country that is still around, yet I see no country that is successful in implementing Karl Marx. 

The class system is real yes, but so is the real opportunity that anyone has (within certain countries) a chance to change there class and become wealthy.  That is the American dream having that opportunity.  This is not a popular opinion on this specific board, yet most of the posters here have not done much in the last 10 years of there life.

Yes I am a Mormon, which is why I take interest in this topic as Mormons tried to live in a society just like Marx wanted... it failed too for the same reasons, the human behavior.  Glad you remembered me.

5

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 28, 2016, 03:13:47 PM »

False, Karl Marx, believed that another class of people would help the working class with there revolution which is how we even got communision introduced.  He wrote with Engel's the manifesto.  You are delirious if you believe that Karl Marx didn't have a political agenda or a role in how his economic ideas would play out in a functioning government. 

Marx premise was everything involved with the production of a product less wages was profit.  Therefore the only way one could have a surplus/profit would be by decreasing wages.  This is totally false as you can take the lowering of costs and maintaining a steady wage and still see lower profits.  His economic approach only takes into account systemic company risks and completely disregards market risk, or factors that said company can't control.  A company can not control the weather, a government/group of controlling companies flooding the market with supplies destroying companies "profit" (example OPEC). 

Karl Marx even wrote on human nature and its role in society.  For someone who claims they are a classical Marxist your knowledge on this is very shallow.  Hell Karl Marx formed many of his ideas from Adam Smith and other capitalist who warned about the same damn thing he warned about which happened in Russia!  Like I said everyone who has tried to implement his ideas to an entire class have failed miserable.  Does Marx have solid thoughts behind labor hell yes he does, but his idea of a social revolution as the only path to fix it is horseshit, hence unions.  I mean you do realize that most economists understand some of the value that Karl Marx had, but they also understand that his methods were only theory's that just were wrong.

6

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 28, 2016, 12:22:05 PM »

Yet you dismiss it knowing full well that human behavior is the biggest reason why all attempts of a government implementing ideas from Marx have utterly failed.  I have a very firm grasp of how human behavior, culture, and environment play a role in the building up or tearing down governments or economic societies. 

The reason why your ideal system fails is because it is based on the assumption or theory that the only way for a company to increase profit is through exploiting labor.  This has been proven wrong so many times it has actually moved Marxism from a science to a pseudoscience.  His theories have failed being implemented many times and his argument of social revolution that would occur hasn't in more advanced capitalist societies that understood that his theory was complete bullshit. 

The only time his theory has actually came to being even close to working is the formation of cooperatives that typically function using a mix of his ideas with capitalist ideas.  Like I said I belong to a cooperative (amalgamated sugar company) which did just what Marx said would happen.  Being a part of the buyout and working with my peers I can tell you that Marx idea that exploitation of works to extract profit is total and complete bullshit.  Exploitation continues in the coop structure, oppression continues, and the ability to determine what is "equal" among members would be the equivalent of a union negotiating with a company. 

Not only do I understand the theory of Marxism I have also put my mouth and pocket book in actually implementing it.  Point blank his theories are based on antiquated knowledge and science that no longer even applies as the basic assumptions he used in those theories are wrong.  Even fellow marxists can't even agree on those assumptions that he used.  Talking to you is the equivalent of talking to someone who is convinced the world is flat and is pissed off because someone not only has discovered the world is round but has actually sailed it.

7

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 26, 2016, 11:56:37 PM »

You can not have corruption without the human aspect period.  Also being in a cooperative does not eliminate conflict of interests.  How to grow/expand/run the cooperative creates the same hostile environment, especially in years where there aren't profits due to global surpluses.  In essence they have the exact same experiences as a capitalist run business. 

You act as though human behavior is a non factor... yet the very basis of your entire argument is based on human behavior... your entire premise assumes that humans want to be equal does it not?  You can worship Marx if you want to yet his ideas do not have a good track record when they have been implemented.   

8

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 26, 2016, 08:10:04 PM »

Unfortunately, corruption has been around well before capitalism and it is there even in the most successful coops.  I have personal experience involving true cooperatives and I belong to two currently (amalgamated sugar company and Valley Wide Coop).  I utilize a member owned financial institution for my business.  (Farm credit service system).   

While these cooperatives have been successful, many others have failed just like corporations. Internal politics always come into play and human nature has always been the enemy of an equal system.  I do not believe that violence has a role in that type of system, nor can it be used to take away from a capitalist system to be made into a collective system.  I am most definitely not a Marxist as I feel that they lacked the understanding of moral principles and the importance that they have in a government and economic society. 

Workers in a cooperative are just as likely to go bankrupt as corporations.  My point in longevity is the means you used to accomplish your ideal system.  The vast majority of Marxist idealists are only theorist wishing and talking about what could happen.  The knowledge of past societies that have practiced said "ideals" have either failed entirely, or as I said previously are a short term system that gets crushed in the long term because of the lack of moral principles.  When workers have no hope of a better future he ceases to be an asset to the collective whole.

Again the issue here is the implementation of said system.  Without moral principles being taught, human nature will always be lacking and corruption will always take place.  You can't expect a human being to be satisfied with being equal when it is natural for us to judge others.  As I have said before, your ideal concept doesn't exist nor will it ever. 

9

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 26, 2016, 01:58:30 PM »

Your answer is to encourage chaos?  Interesting thought process.  You do realize that once the laborers take over they will still have to run the company, which means orginazation, structure, and leadership thus creating the same environment of corruption that exsisted previously.  While labor and the cost of labor affects profits, it most definitely isn't the direct result in a business success.  In a global market how does this company provide longevity to its labor force when it now has higher wages than the competition?  How does this company keep the upper management when a different company offers to pay the "leaders of the revolt" double what they are making now? 

In your ideal system of government... when has it ever worked outside of the books you have read and the theory you have in your head?  The problem with your ideal system is the disconnect from reality.  You have no answers on how to successfully implentment your "ideals" when people don't want to conform to them without using oppression and corruption and still be competitive in the world.  Without that it is only a short term system lacking in the long game and will get crushed.

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General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 26, 2016, 12:34:53 PM »

As long as there has been man involved in any system of government the principle of supply and demand exists.  You can't get around it.  Automation happens when technology becomes cheaper than labor.  So how would increasing min wage not support the premise of job loss?  It's not propaganda it's economics.  Even in a system of socialism it's the same you can just substitute money into whatever medium allows more food on the table.  Capitalism isn't the problem, corruption of mankind is. 

11

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 25, 2016, 03:33:44 PM »

Interesting accessment you gathered there.  I'm not surprised by it as you clearly were confused by Yamon's viewpoints.  If you want to bring up class consciousness in relation to minium wage then do so.  I was obviously discussing minium wage based on economics. 

Yet you yourself have already proved that you believe in separating people into a class system by simply labeling people who disagree with you as idiots, stupid, or there opinions don't matter... much like most of the people here do. 

12

General Discussion / Re: Trump won and all I can think about is ^adam^

« on: December 24, 2016, 02:30:08 PM »

I see that Yamon is still trying to educate people on here.  In regards to the min wage discussion...  if you want a great example look at the states that just passed higher Min wage laws, then do a search for automated services that McDonalds just announced for testing and roll out to replace those jobs.  If you think min wage increases don't have a direct impact on loss of jobs, maybe you shouldn't look to the politicians propaganda and look at what the businesses that are directly impacted are doing.  When unemployment raises the cost of labor would naturally become lower as the supply of workers has increased.  By have a law/regulation in place min wage, it negates the natural process of supply/demand and restricts the ability to compete or correct that supply.