Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Harrywangs on September 05, 2020, 01:42:35 PM
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I'm going to make small fixes to GOW. I know this may not be popular but I mostly ask that you try it out and give me some feedback. GOW TE, last I recall, has a lot more changes. This is simply 2-3 clicks of grass/no grass changes total.
1) I added 1 grass spot to 6, so you can hall 1 spot closer.
2) I took away the chop at 8, so you can hall closer. In 3s/4s, imo, the s9 gay is still worth it but when you expo now, at least you are closer. You can also build 8 if you chose though.
3) This is the one I'm not 100% sure about. To take away the 1 chop from 4. I'm leaning towards no. 4 is def at a disadv but all I fixed for 6/8 was being able to hall closer. Those 2 spots still have disadvantages, just not as much.
Changing 4 is now taking a spot that can hall close, and changing it. Now, a fast GT under 4 is useless early on and walls are more optional, as you can further chop 4.
Let me know your feedback on 4 please.
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Should probably also have a look at starting positions too for example moving 8 so that it is closer to 9 on the right same for other positions traveling time is also a way to balance things :-).
As for 4 vs 5 the problem is the time it takes to get units around to defend the back of 4 vs the time it takes for 5 to threaten it.
It is very easy for 5 to reinforce that area and very long and tedious for 4 to get there and the potential damage dealt to the gold flow of 4 makes it a fight you cant afford not to get into and you cannot win it unless 5 messes up.
On the other hand 4 will need a very long time to get units on the back of 5 (for a counter attack that has a much much weaker potential effect).
- You could move the gold mine of 4 like 1 tile to the right for example it would still be kind of a weakness but now the player at 4 can put a tower here early and would not be as much hurt by that cheese. And if you think 4 is still a bit weak which is probably still is you can pre-chop it I feel that would be much more than enough to give it a fairer chance in that fight without changing the map too much. (see attachement)
:thinking:
Though even if there are more "balanced" versions of gow already, most players keep playing/loving the imbalanced one more. I suppose imbalances add some tenssion and randomness to the outcome of games that makes games different everytime. These imbalances allow sometimes the weaker player to win against the stronger one it gives them hope and it also gives the stronger players games that are more difficult and interesting to play as well ^-^
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Well, to be honnest i think 8-6 are ok, Lone show us that not only he can win from s9, but he also can do it vs higher player from 11!
I also show you that i can rape swift under 5 minutes from moving 8 to middle.
The only part i would fix is 4, because 4 is certainly the worst position of the entire map, only putting some more wood beside the gold mine, would be fine.
Thats my opinion.
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Or that yes, which would be a much softer change keeping 4 in a defenssive vulnerable state but making it easier for him to set up his goldflow.
It wont make it easier for 4 to claim that middle ground though but it also does not change the dynamic of the fight as much and keeps it closer to what gow classic feels like. :ok_hand:
I suppose it would look like this (attachement again with and without pre-chops). :thinking:
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yeah but i would not remove that little piece of wood.
And yes 4 can go to middle like 8 or 6 does, but the distance is way much longer, and we dont want every position to go on middle too... see what i mean..
The things about 4 is that you must chop, but you also have to make wall, and those wall cost money and wood, wich fuck up almost every strategie you can do compare every other positions.
60 gold dont represente alot, but 60 gold. less one peon to chop, became alot of gold and make every strategies harder compare to what he should do.
Rush is not valuable, dual are pretty hard to defend, and if you want to have a propre power you cant really scout.
By adding those little piece of wood you still have the magic of the desadvantage, because you still need to chop the wood, but you still valuable, it became a kind of 11.
4 is total piece of crap, let's be honnest.... 6 is slowed for the gold flow and hard to defend but since you can go to s9 its ok, same for 8.
Other then that, what i dont like with that gow case, is not the fact that we can modify it, it's way much more the fact that everyone have make over 200 different version and we get lost.
I think we should focus once for all, on that case, making a new version where all the communauty get belong, and release it on a future patch where it's playable on the ladder mode.
But peoples must participate to that thread and give there truly opinion, so at the end maybe the communauty will finally start to play a new version for real.
Because all those 200 version have never been consider seriously and thats the probleme.
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Imo gow only needs 3 fixes. A balance between the original map, but also evening the playing field
1 tree taken from top right corner of 4 o clock gold mine.
6 able to hall 3 spaces away.
8 is a little difficult.. but I think just taking the tree line to the right of the gold mine, and shifting it towards the water under neath is good. Enough room to build hall to right of 8, without peons popping out back side of 8 gold mine.
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I wish I recorded the games, but like 3 different games u8 vs swift, when one of them got 4 o clock and the other had a "normal" spot( 5,9,11,2,12) .. after all of the initial buildings/units were built, and they should have been equal in resources, 4 o clock was 1000 gold behind every time.. 4 o clock is essentially a 1000 gold disadvantage early game.
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Yes like Equinox said travelling time is also something worth having a look at, moving the starting position of 4 closer to the middle without making it too far from hall build location would give it a better chance at having other options too.
I will try tonight a version of the map where the mine of 4 is moved one tile to the right and pre-chopped because I believe it may offer some interesting possibilities. ^-^
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Garden of war TE
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TE changes more than 2-3 spots on the map though last I recall. (I can't find it anywhere in the maps to verify)
Tk- what you said is exactly what I had said.
I thought more people would be against the tree removal in 4 but it seems like the opposite. Well, I made both maps anyways. It seem like the no chop at 4 is more popular at this point, so I'll stick with that for now then.
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Ok with chopping 4, you have to chop 11 too... but 11 has more gold and you don't have to build walls. So something needs to even out, more gold, or no walls
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Yeah, 11 has too many adv already. Again, not really trying to change everything. Just the real disadvantaged spots that NEED to be changed.
EQ, you are right about establishing 1 map. Should get feedback from community and see what majority think.
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Everything about gow is perfect
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I haven't really read through the thread. But what I have been thinking of to balance gow better is to:
1. Make one dirt to grass at 6.
2. Fill in three squares of grass at 4, where you normally build walls.
I think that will make it more balanced.
If you want to make the map easier to play for newbs, fix the 8 spawn issue. But I think most players wants to keep it as it is.
Now I see that this is suggested before : )
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Another thing that could be balanced at the map is how easy it is to block between hall and gold on all spots. 4 is very easy to block off completely from mining which is very unfair. A piece of dirt could be added in front of mine to disable 3x3 building block.
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Moving the mine one tile right and pre-chopping takes care of that problem too :-)
Have tried this in multiple games but only times 4 was taken 5 was either ally or free so I will still be testing that next weekend :-\
Though what I like about moving the mine one tile right as 4 is yes you have more space on the left of the mine but that extra space is an easy tower spot that you have easier access to than your opponent.
Having a tower here will not only kinda help protect your from backstabbing but also help you get a foot on the area between the two spots which is the real mid-game imbalance between these two positions.
^-^
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Leave the map the same but move 8's starting spot to s9. :)
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Leave the map the same but move 8's starting spot to s9. :)
Nope. If there was no delay in the s9 build, then 9 would never stand a chance in 3s/4s if s9/11 hot.
Gow is perfect, don't touch imo
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Gow is perfect, don't touch imo
IF U WIN, ITS SKILL
IF U LOSE, ITS THE SHITTY SPOTS (U'D WIN OTHERWISE)
PLAYING OLD EF IS A WIN-WIN SITUATION
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Nope. If there was no delay in the s9 build, then 9 would never stand a chance in 3s/4s if s9/11 hot.
that is fine
meanwhile now s9 can stand up a little better against 11
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Nope. If there was no delay in the s9 build, then 9 would never stand a chance in 3s/4s if s9/11 hot.
that is fine
meanwhile now s9 can stand up a little better against 11
11's advantage over s9 is balanced out with the tower bug.
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Claw is 100% right.
Let's say you hypothetically have people of equal skill level and one at 6/8 and another at 11/12/2/5 and I'll even say 4. You could argue 9 but s9/9 is evenish. Play 100 games, how many does 6/8 win?
20? Maybe 30 max? The answer should be NEAR 50%. Naturally, not all spots are equal, nor should they be, but replace any other spots from the 6/8 person and your stats will change noticeably. That is my point.
I'm not trying to make everything equal, I would just like everyone to have a chance is all. Tourneys, series, team games; every time, someone goes, "well I had 6/8 4x" yet nobody wants to change anything. I just don't understand it.
I never played GOWEF before RU and before GOWF died on RU. There was a reason for it. It is a horse shit map. Now that I've played it for years, guess what, it is still a horse shit map.
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gow is a horseshit map? sorry, harry, but we can't be friends any more.
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Just because there are plenty of places to hide and do goofy shit, doesn't mean it's a good map. :)
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Gow is fine, just disable u8's 6/8 hack please
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Gow is fine, just disable u8's 6/8 hack please
PLZ NO :sweat: :rofl:
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GOW is not a horse shit map at all :-X.
What makes gow so nice of a map is the variety of situations the players can be put in.
You can play over 10 games of GOW in a row and never have the same situations occuring twice.
Sometime you will have a spot that lets you dual, sometime you have a spot that is better for a rush sometimes it is just better to power. Add to that the possible positions of your opponent and you have a lot of very different games on your hands. This is something GOW has that not a lot of other map really have.
Of course it means there will be some imbalances and yes the classic version really does have quite big imbalances.
You can try and reduce them but overall you cant really make it 100% balanced and still keep the diversity a good compromise has to be found sort of. :P :thumbsup:
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Claw is 100% right.
Let's say you hypothetically have people of equal skill level and one at 6/8 and another at 11/12/2/5 and I'll even say 4. You could argue 9 but s9/9 is evenish. Play 100 games, how many does 6/8 win?
20? Maybe 30 max? The answer should be NEAR 50%. Naturally, not all spots are equal, nor should they be, but replace any other spots from the 6/8 person and your stats will change noticeably. That is my point.
I'm not trying to make everything equal, I would just like everyone to have a chance is all. Tourneys, series, team games; every time, someone goes, "well I had 6/8 4x" yet nobody wants to change anything. I just don't understand it.
I never played GOWEF before RU and before GOWF died on RU. There was a reason for it. It is a horse shit map. Now that I've played it for years, guess what, it is still a horse shit map.
Yeah that series we had, I think I could have had a better chance to win it if I didn’t spawn 8 4 times
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Gow is great for "let's have a good time and play some war2" ... the best imo.
Its horrible for "let's have a bo7 series to see who the better player/team is" (if someone is disproportionately spot fucked)