Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Igognito on April 13, 2018, 10:24:21 AM
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Hi all,
The idea I have is simple and come up from what @BabyShark is trying to achieve for 2 specific maps.
I believe we should create a mechanism for making "official" some maps!
The candidate maps are many!
I would first start by making official (adding to ladder and to installer) the maps that have won on previous map competitions.
Then I would suggest of having map competition where the community votes for maps to become official!!!
Now maps that lost on a competition the can still participate to future competitions ;-)
Also this competitions could be often! For example every month!
The competition would start by the creators posting some maps on the forum (first week of the month).
Then a responsible person makes the poll for the posted maps.
Then people play the maps and vote!
At the end of the month the poll closes and the map with the most votes wins.
Every new year (or sooner) the responsible admin for installer will need to make a new version that includes the new maps :-)
Furthermore, this will be a nice mechanism for developing other features of the game and releasing them yearly.
Tell me what you think!
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I know how to add maps, i even wrote here how to do it, but it must be fair map not like mr.bean
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I feel you are in favor to increase the map pool!
You just have your reservations on which maps to use...
Then propose a method for choosing maps to add :-)
I proposed a way that did not took fairness in consideration. You suggest a way that we can evaluate a map for fairness.
The only way I can think is by having a map evaluation comity that approves the maps before are added.
Something like:
The 3 most voted maps pass from a comity to be revised for fairness and minor bugs. The best map in terms of game play is chosen.
As this will have an extra round might make the process slower. But that is not necessarily a bad thing.
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I made even topic about it,
1.players pick map and we added but not like BS 2 ppl want so we will add it
2. making tours with new map as ladder
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I am more sold by Shepherd's map to be honest I think they are much more polished and we do need more awesome water maps like these. Also they are very fair.
However I just wanted to add that the most played official maps are not fair so I don't know if that is a valid enough point:
GOW has unfair spots its no secret players play around it and actually like it.
POS 3 o'clock is spot fucked in the classical version of it (has to build hall one extra step further no to be trapped)
FOC some spots are very bad in the classical version like 4 who's mine is exposed while some others are perfectly safe like 8
HSC has the same issue for 6 and 2.
X Mark The Spot is unfair on high res (9 has advantage and safer island)
Maybe the fact that they are unfair actually added something to them people feel like they have a chance if they get a good configuration? So I dont know still they are the most liked/played map today and they are not the most fair ones by far. :critter:
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thats why blizzard made BNE version for multiplayer, they were made with BATTLE NET EDITION, classic maps were not making for multiplayer, all maps with "classic icon" werent make for multiplayer!
so if some1 want play classic map he should stop complain about "map is not fair"
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I am not complaining I don't mind it most of the time you gotta play around it and you might even find a strength in it or surprise your opponent.
But you seemed to say the fact that map is unfair should be disqualifying.
I just pointed out that the most played maps are usually the unfair ones.
Classic is still more played than BNE, BNE does make maps more fair but not like 100% fair that wouldn't be fun.
In Gow even in BNE version every spot still are very different from one another, some spots are safer than others it certainly makes things a little unfair.
But also unfair makes things more interesting as it pushes the players to find work around and play with each other's strengths/weaknesses.
I think that is also the reason Classic GOW even though less fair than BNE is still more fun to most people, it has to do with the fact that some spots have to do crazy things to be efficient.
Meaning that every game you play has more chance to be completely different you cant just apply the same strategy/build every game, you have to adapt to your position's strengths and weaknesses thus you are less likely to get bored.
I guess a good map should try to maximize fairness and minimize spot's similarities I guess but that is quite hard to do ain't it? ^-^
One way to do that is to create weaknesses and strength for every spot like some spot have safer expand but have more exposed base things like that.
In GOW that is really done well for example: 9 has back exposed but if it goes for a dual it is very powerful. 11 has no easy expand but is very safe. 12 has back expand but cannot close and can be hit from the back by 2.
All that variety both makes it fair and a bit unfair at the same time I guess there is a good trade-off to find for every good map but certainly a little bit of unfair might be inevitable if you seek to push your players in a variety of game-play and situations.
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A few ideas:
1. Form a Map Approval Committee of 3 people who can be nominated and voted on to serve specifically as custom map inspectors to ensure that maps added to the playing pool are quality maps.
2. Vote on maps individually, require a minimum number of affirmative votes, perhaps 5-10, which outnumber naysayers
3. I also agree there are a number of quality maps that deserve to be included with the game when it's downloaded and deserve to be valid for 1s for ladder.war2.ru. Some are Canals, Pirate's Lagoon, Ocean Bloom, Paradise Lost, Party at Midnight, and many more that aren't coming to mind immediately. Having MORE maps enriches what W2 offers and expands the possibilities for enjoyability for this dying game. I don't see any good reason to deny quality normal Warcraft 2 play style maps from being counted.
That being said some of the maps that are currently counted should really be removed or edited to make them less ridiculous. Some of them have been named elsewhere. BUT, there isn't really an urgent need to remove them since barely anyone ever plays them and no one seems particularly bothered by their existence or inclusion. The same would also be true of maps like Mr. Bean and Zones and Pirate's Lagoon. They are there for the people who want to play them, but no one is forced to play them who doesn't want to, so no one should be particularly bothered if they are included. But the people who do like to 1s a lot on these maps who enjoy the fun, friendly competition amongst themselves can have an easy reference to their win/loss record against their friends.
I would NOT like to see any bogus maps included like Big BGH, Free Button Masher maps, Archers, Waterknights, Footman Frenzy, none of those garbage maps...not even my personal favorite silly map Tower Warz. Those aren't W2 normal play style so should definitely all be excluded.
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3. I also agree there are a number of quality maps that deserve to be included with the game when it's downloaded and deserve to be valid for 1s for ladder.war2.ru. Some are Canals, Pirate's Lagoon, Ocean Bloom, Paradise Lost, Party at Midnight, and many more that aren't coming to mind immediately
Hmm, interesting, but before the administrators make a decision, I have a very important question:
Which Canals?
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Incuding maps in the game folder and making them legit for ladder are I think two very different things.
About including maps with the game files by default:
For me the real indicator of if a map should be in the game by default is the fact that it is played often or not.
If a map is played a lot it probably deserves to be already in your custom folder when you get the game from the site as they are more likely to be played right?
Even if these map are very new maps if we play them a lot and people see them on streams/videos they might want to download the game and play the same map we advertised.
I would not say custom games are garbage maps even though I don't play those, some of them do deserve in my sense to be included with the game files because they are played a lot and some players might even want to come back to play them.
Them Chop, BGH, Free castle, maps should be already present in the custom folder when you get the game from the site so that players can download the game and host their favorite map from the get go if they so wish for that reason I guess.
About the ladder it is much more complex I think as changing the roaster of maps means changing the meaning of the current elo.
You would need to create a new elo I think.
We could do it though having a classic BNE elo that would be based on classic bne maps and a war2combat edition elo based on a completely different set of maps that we deem legit and fair enough.
We could even have map specific elos the real problem is database space and extra work in the end. :critter:
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3. I also agree there are a number of quality maps that deserve to be included with the game when it's downloaded and deserve to be valid for 1s for ladder.war2.ru. Some are Canals, Pirate's Lagoon, Ocean Bloom, Paradise Lost, Party at Midnight, and many more that aren't coming to mind immediately
Hmm, interesting, but before the administrators make a decision, I have a very important question:
Which Canals?
I understand the gravity of your question, when it comes to things like copyrights and royalties and who will inherit the millions of dollars of profits after the map makers pass on.
The best answer I can give you is here:
Warcraft II - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFXmFyP-Gps#)
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I would NOT like to see any bogus maps included like Free Button Masher maps , none of those garbage maps..
Don't want them in the ladder but 😭
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My beloved Tower Warz is a joke button masher too lol. :)
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I remember there was stats about ru.server maps,players
we can also add if map was playing 100(50?) times in month as another rule to add new map
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Lesnik is keeping track of data on map % played. Maybe lambchops too
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thats why blizzard made BNE version for multiplayer, they were made with BATTLE NET EDITION, classic maps were not making for multiplayer, all maps with "classic icon" werent make for multiplayer!
so if some1 want play classic map he should stop complain about "map is not fair"
it does go to show that players are still willing to play & able to enjoy maps that aren't perfectly balanced and fair, given that gow classic is the most played map of all time & played preferentially much moreso than its BNE counterpart
But also unfair makes things more interesting as it pushes the players to find work around and play with each other's strengths/weaknesses.
yeah!
One way to do that is to create weaknesses and strength for every spot like some spot have safer expand but have more exposed base things like that.
A+ !
I am more sold by Shepherd's map to be honest I think they are much more polished and we do need more awesome water maps like these. Also they are very fair.
yes! love shep's maps & definitely support their inclusion in ladder too
I remember there was stats about ru.server maps,players
we can also add if map was playing 100(50?) times in month as another rule to add new map
oh yes agree, i had the same thought in the other thread. hope to set up an official version of a data tracking type page on the site at some point
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I think more important then ladder is just gathering maps and having them included in Combat next edition. I talked to iL and he said releasing a new edition with just more maps could happen and I have gathered some maps but still need to get more.
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You can't make a map and think it will be finished without a lot of testing and proper adjustments... It takes many hours to complete a good map, so if people are willing to put down the time, both players and map makers. I think some nice fun competitive maps could be added to the pool. The problem is to find serious people willing to test and come with feedback. If you can publish a map on the forum and people would test play and give feedback we have a good chance to get some good maps developed.
The maps could be rated/feedback through different categories. E.g. Competitive play, Fun, Balanced, Dynamic (the map is not a complete mirror from each side). etc...
I'm willing to put down hours of work into this. I already got a long way to understand what's important to make a balanced maps and competitive maps. I still have a lot to learn, I have start tried learn play BNE style maps, so I can understand more what's needed. There is a lot to understand in how to make fair starting positions etc. Also I think a good map should be easy to learn with no special op barrack and tower placements (like in gow).
I also think the competitive part of warcraft 2 would benefit a lot from more 1s maps. But I guess that's really hard without tournaments promoting real 1s game play. Also many players seems scared of real 1s competitive play.
I invented my own system of naming the maps while beta testing them. I add "+" sign to the map name to show that it's a beta test version. For example: Terenas Stand+.pub - Next version would be named Terenas Stand++.pub. And the final version should just be named Terenas Stand.pub. Terenas Stand map: http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,3627.msg59546.html#msg59546 (http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,3627.msg59546.html#msg59546)
Would be great if the map pool can be updated and changed often! Great initiative! :)
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I'm very happy for the positive reactions this topic got!
Let me answer in a few points:
About the ladder it is much more complex I think as changing the roaster of maps means changing the meaning of the current elo.
You would need to create a new elo I think.
We could do it though having a classic BNE elo that would be based on classic bne maps and a war2combat edition elo based on a completely different set of maps that we deem legit and fair enough.
Elo will normalize just fine... No need to make map related Elo. Take for example Unu... He only plays NWTR so his Elo is representative for the terrain you will fight him :-D
Incuding maps in the game folder and making them legit for ladder are I think two very different things.
I totally agree:
We then require two mechanisms:
(a) an inclusive mechanism that allows more maps to be distributed with the game.
(b) a strict mechanism that promotes some maps to ladder maps.
for (a)
I would say that we can set a number (N) of maps to be included per year! The N most popular new maps (either by vote or play) are included.
for (b)
We set a up a committee etc...
Cheers
ps: I need to go now I will continue tomorrow
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Continuing from yesterday...
You can't make a map and think it will be finished without a lot of testing and proper adjustments... It takes many hours to complete a good map, so if people are willing to put down the time, both players and map makers. I think some nice fun competitive maps could be added to the pool. The problem is to find serious people willing to test and come with feedback. If you can publish a map on the forum and people would test play and give feedback we have a good chance to get some good maps developed.
Yes, you are right a new map takes time to be completed! It takes time to create, beta test, and to improve.
But this is happening daily lately!
Maps from Shepherd, Nedro and XBremer and others are being played and improved often!
The problem is that further than a few people that recognize that by playing and helping these map makers the community stays dark!
So that is what all this topic is about :-) to make a way the work of map makers to reach a wider audience and get more recognition!
Also I want to bring to attention that we have/had 2 players that had joined the community to be map makers! Bjorn (@BJayLandmaker) which made by far the most pretty maps I've seen and an other new player @frontliner2 (which by the way has made a very cool map, bloodpath, which with a bit of beta testing and improvement might be a great to play map!)
These kind of players is what we need in this community! Players that contribute and devote their time constructively for all of us!
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Thank you for the big compliment Igognito. I appreciate that. I did not play wc2 for months. Do people actually play my maps tho? I made a lot and would like to see that. I will make more maps at some point for sure. Since last August i'm into another game for making levels and doing live streams.
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Yes, you are right a new map takes time to be completed! It takes time to create, beta test, and to improve.
But this is happening daily lately!
Maps from Shepherd, Nedro and XBremer and others are being played and improved often!
The problem is that further than a few people that recognize that by playing and helping these map makers the community stays dark!
So where are the forum posts about these new maps? And who is beta testing? As I said, I am putting down a lot of hours into developing balanced maps, and does just get small response from community. And I've been a regular player for Warcraft 2 since the early days. I love this effort with trying to get better maps to war2, but the maps posted here so far is not really balanced. Although they could be! But there is a long way to go still...
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Yes, you are right a new map takes time to be completed! It takes time to create, beta test, and to improve.
But this is happening daily lately!
Maps from Shepherd, Nedro and XBremer and others are being played and improved often!
The problem is that further than a few people that recognize that by playing and helping these map makers the community stays dark!
So where are the forum posts about these new maps? And who is beta testing? As I said, I am putting down a lot of hours into developing balanced maps, and does just get small response from community. And I've been a regular player for Warcraft 2 since the early days. I love this effort with trying to get better maps to war2, but the maps posted here so far is not really balanced. Although they could be! But there is a long way to go still...
Try start location -> random
ta-da! balanced.
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Try start location -> random
ta-da! balanced.
:))
So where are the forum posts about these new maps? And who is beta testing? As I said, I am putting down a lot of hours into developing balanced maps, and does just get small response from community. And I've been a regular player for Warcraft 2 since the early days. I love this effort with trying to get better maps to war2, but the maps posted here so far is not really balanced. Although they could be! But there is a long way to go still...
Last night we played a lot of maps from XBremer1!
Only thing needed is for you to come online and start advertising. Then slowly but constantly people will join your games. Usually we get a group of 6 (sometime 8) players make 2 more or less balanced teams and go for it!!!
Now if you have balanced 1s maps that is a very different story. Personally I'm not a 1s player. I simply do not enjoy 1s that much, but I will play you for testing the maps!
So prepare your team maps and come and host them tonight!!!! Speak to me XBremer1, Babyshark, ring, Tofu, Raimis, Cel, Xurnt, and many many others!
See you tonight (22:00+~CET)
Cheerios
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Thank you for the big compliment Igognito. I appreciate that. I did not play wc2 for months. Do people actually play my maps tho? I made a lot and would like to see that. I will make more maps at some point for sure. Since last August i'm into another game for making levels and doing live streams.
You are welcome, and it is true in terms of beauty your maps ROCK!
Unfortunately, I cant host games otherwise I would be hosting some of them that I like to play :-)
I really like the 2nd map you have posted at:
http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,3198.0.html (http://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,3198.0.html)
that map is really fun to play :-D And one of the few you have not maxed out gold mines!
I also want to try Frozen World
Seabattle of Power is the map I have played the most among all :-)
Mystic Forrest is a good comps map if I remember well! I think I should mention this one to Sandman!
Also if we tune the goldmines I think it might be a great map for pvp :-)
You should join one of these nights (CET time) and host for us. Be a bit patient, I'm sure you will find players to play your maps!
I will also say to XBremer to have a look at your maps. He makes very interesting tactical maps but not so beautiful!
He could learn a few tricks from your maps and you from his :-D
Cheerios