Warcraft II Forum
Warcraft II => Server.War2.ru => Topic started by: Nox on December 14, 2021, 08:36:22 AM
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Hi guys ive been playing this mode for couples days nows, i really like it, ive talk with alot of peoples about it and in general it's pretty much 50-50.
Some peoples like it,
some peoples dont,
some peoples are not sure yet.
In general i think it's really important to keep working on this rebalance mode.
I think since we got the choice to choose between a classic game and a rebalance game it bring us the right to have no limit about this mode. I also think its by keeping to work on this mode we will bring more peoples because they will realize how this mode can be great!!!
Anyway, Old purist will always have the old version of war2 and peoples who like the evolution will have this mode.
From my part im playing both mode and i enjoy both of em.
So i think any kind of ideas for this mode should be regroup somwhere and thats why i start this thread.
I was talking with swift yesterday, and we were talking about how the mage and deathknight have irrelevant spells.
Some cost way too much mana, some have no duration at all, some barely do damage.
Let's take by exemple skeletoons... Thats would be cool if they were a little bit stronger, if they will cost less mana or at least raising more skelletoons, this spell could be really fun and maybe usefull in some situation.
It's just an exemple, but we think in general, it would be really cool to rework some of those spells!
I would also add back the chop bars... I think this feature is really good and will help alot of new players to improve faster.
Whatever it was only some ideas like this, hope it open some doors.
Thanks for the time, dont forgot to give ur ideas too, thanks!
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well chopbars plugin still exist so anyone can actually just dl and use...
about spells what can be done
1) can change cost of any spell
2) can change duration of all buffs (exept fireshield)
3) can change fireball dmg
cannot do now but can find probably
4) can try to find how change runes dmg if need
5) can try to find how change tornado dmg if need
6) any other ideas?
all this need many thinking though
like how much mana u think make skeletons? 25 instead of 50?
maybe make this spell just spawn skeleton wihout dead body?
wat else?
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I think adding triggers as a game mode would be great.
Also, just keep in mind if you make skeletons useful we can’t use it as a tool for embarrassment anymore. That would take away from the spirit of the game.
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we'll always have whirlwind
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In my opinion, a very good topic for a more lively discussion of war2rebalanced! Thank you, Eq.
With your permission, I am using this theme as some kind of "testing ground" for ideas. They can be easily discussed and all potential pros and cons can be identified ...
First, I would like to say that work on the war2rebalanced must be meticulous and accurate, and therefore, we will not rush to anything.
Means: for now we will postpone corrections / improvements to spells in war2.
Right now we have the opportunity to "improve" archers / trolls!
Everyone knows that these are very stupid and ineffective units. We can shorten the silly delay before attacking and these units will finally start shooting normally! This will not make them too strong, but it will allow them to live a little longer, and do a little more damage.
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Only the long thinking of the archers before the attack has undergone changes. Does it look good already?
With the usual upgrades, such archers already look formidable.
What happens if you tweak the stats a little? :)
We look:
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cool! a little hard to tell how effective they are because of the semi-choke/poor micro ... The speed up is great but maybe they're actually shooting TOO fast?
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I'm not sure if I should post it here but I was thinking if we could have a setting on the client to make it automatically save game replays after each match? I think it's useful to look at games to learn what you could've done differently, and it would make it much easier if the game did that automatically
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I'm not sure if I should post it here but I was thinking if we could have a setting on the client to make it automatically save game replays after each match? I think it's useful to look at games to learn what you could've done differently, and it would make it much easier if the game did that automatically
It already exist but most peoples dont know it.
If you want to automaticly records all ur game, then follow these steps.
1: Open ur War2Folder
2: Find the folder War2Launcher2 and open it
3: The first time you will open it it will open ur C Drive, you must find a folder where you want to save all those replays, for my own part i just create a new folder and name it War2Replays. Then select this folder, now all ur replays gonna be save in the folder you have choose.
4: Everytime you want to save ur replays you must open the game by War2Launcher2!
5: Enjoy.
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Only the long thinking of the archers before the attack has undergone changes. Does it look good already?
With the usual upgrades, such archers already look formidable.
What happens if you tweak the stats a little? :)
We look:
Here my ideas for the archers troll.
1- We must consider archers and troll are not melle fighters, so they ARE not suppose to be hard to kill.
2- On the other side, they dont wear full mail plate like Grunts or Footmans, so they should be faster when they move ( i would give them speed around the Knights and ogers speeds, maybe a little less!
3- I think damage are ok for LVL 1! But should be better if you updrade them in the lumber mill.
4- The only things i would change at level 1 is ther movement speed, so grunts or footmans cant catch them with a good uc, but ogers and knights will be to able to catch them. Wich bring archers and troll in a micro environement for the early game but bring them more normal in the mid late game against knights and ogers.
5- If you uprade them in the lumber mill, then maybe that speed attack can increase like in the video.
6- What would be great is to have a fire resistance on them, because the main purpose of archers or troll are really to counter dragons and gryphons, but they are weak as hell, if you get dragoonned you must at least create 3 archers to kill one dragon, wich bring the player to stop is ogers productions and can be really devastator in team games, cuz now you must counter those dragons by making tons of archers while the other guys keep sending mass ogers to you... So if they have a fire resistance spell against dragon you can made less archers and keep making some ogers against the other players.
The goal of the archer trolls are really to bring them into a micro unit, like paintball style! Especially for early game, they dont do alot of damage, but they are hard to catch untill ogers and knight get in the game and now make them irrelevant.
Wich bring them into dragon gryphons counter only in mid late game.
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well chopbars plugin still exist so anyone can actually just dl and use...
about spells what can be done
1) can change cost of any spell
2) can change duration of all buffs (exept fireshield)
3) can change fireball dmg
cannot do now but can find probably
4) can try to find how change runes dmg if need
5) can try to find how change tornado dmg if need
6) any other ideas?
all this need many thinking though
like how much mana u think make skeletons? 25 instead of 50?
maybe make this spell just spawn skeleton wihout dead body?
wat else?
Well brotha, the goal is to add those feature in the game itself, most pro dosent need the chop bars cuz they remember the order they send peons into the wood , but for new players it will be usefull to them cuz everything goes so fast for them and they dont remember anything. Now, there no new players who will find that plug in and install it himself.. This is also bad, we dont want a free world where you can download ur own software, everyone must be in the same page.. So if you add something in the game, you must add it for everyone at the same time without asking them to download the things and install it himself. You do something or you dont do it, thats what i think. Whatever. thats would be stupid to not add it in the rebalanced mode, cuz it's really great feature, it look good, it bring fresh air and it will help new peoples to understand there priority in the wood. Also, people who dont like that feature dosent need to press alt, they are just scare from my pov, they think peoples will beat them with the chop bar. Thats all..
Whatever the choice belong to you.
Anyway
Let's talk about fire ball, fireball is really bad spell only because death coil is way much better. Death coil can attack multiple target and it never miss.
So i think to balance fireball you must at least give them a huge amount of dmg. Like REALLY HIGH DMG! Get out the way if you see a mage because if he hit you he could wreck you 90% life on every ogers he touch with one fire ball, something like that. You also can put the mana cost higher, so you can make sure peoples dont abbuse of this spell... A spell that you can only use in extreme mesure for good value, untill you wanna lose all your mana for none valuable reason.
Rune damage are good, the probleme with rune is the cost of the mana, if you do a rune you barealy cant lust anymore, i think i would keep the same damage or even make damage weaker, but i would really love rune to cost less mana.
Tornado seem good in every aspect, dont cost so much mana, dmg are okay.
Skeletoons would need a reduction of mana at 25, maybe give them a little bit better defense and a higher range casting for the dk.
The range to cast the skeletoons is too short, you almost need to go into the middle of the fights to raise them, you want ur dk in security in a longe distance when you use this spell.
Swift was also talking about the polymorph, i think he said that would be good if polymorph coss less mana.
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I thin you guys should change the concept from rebalanced mode to pro Warcraft 2 mode, rather than change what works and what good but enchance on the already solid concepts that made it good. Rather then Nerf, make everything good b what was alrdy good even better as long as you follow the idea of making it skill base use, so the better the player the stronger proteinal to inflict damage. Remove all luck based
Make whirlwind wind move srrsight away from dk n straight back, a more predictable paton
Make Ally's peon become yours (carrying gold) by ur Ally sending it into ur hall so allies can restart teammates wifel Hall but no gold or peon
Make ogres 1 speed slower but enable haste to work on them to b faster than knight while hasted
Remove skeletons attack but give them huge hit points
Make unholy amour last 3-5 seconds longer but puts unit in 1 hp
Make haste 40 Mana
Give archers/axers like a catapult attack that can be dodged more damage but no wea near as slow as cat or damage
Make exiosism take away Mana from ogres but not dispell Cept for dispell unhour amour
Transports to hold 9 units.. ships can sail on land that can't b built on but way more slowly mud ice etc
Make when eye of kilkrog explodes does tiny bit of damage like 5 hp for skilled Snipes, also eye of kilkrog can freezE unit under it
Make community tested gow 3.0 so not quite te but more like community input version that's const antly updated, I'm mayor/annoying imbalances removed but every area optimized for more hops chop ins, ,chokes ,unit movement flow clean up trees not at starting point, making more ways to attack but can b defended fairly etc
Flying machine zeblin, can pick up one unit but drops it 2 seconds later to counter and do etc or doing so makes zeblin die
Make it so if ur peon/unit.view it can play a sound ur eneemy can hear like Zug Zug, with spam limit of course
Doing the trick when u have one unit in middle surrounded by 3 that follow each other around in circles, 4 zeblines etc make whirlwind spawn there constantly high winds
Make ruins can only b seen when cast by anyone, no flashing,last 2 times as long but zeblins/flying machines can spot it
Will update more ideas
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One this I would like to see is Runes mana reduced to 50MP. (200mp for runes seems excessive to me)
And maybe reduce the MP spell costs for mages and dk’s as was mentioned.
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One this I would like to see is Runes mana reduced to 50MP. (200mp for runes seems excessive to me)
And maybe reduce the MP spell costs for mages and dk’s as was mentioned.
1000% not, runes mana is perfect.
in fact, reduce humans' "slow" mana to 25 to combat lust would be the play. where's BobboFU to crunch the numbers?
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One this I would like to see is Runes mana reduced to 50MP. (200mp for runes seems excessive to me)
And maybe reduce the MP spell costs for mages and dk’s as was mentioned.
1000% not, runes mana is perfect.
in fact, reduce humans' "slow" mana to 25 to combat lust would be the play. where's BobboFU to crunch the numbers?
50 is too less but 200 is too much, the goal is to still have some lust after a rune.
And considering your ogers goes into fight before he reach 250 mana. They mostly and normaly stand around 200 mana.
150 seem perfect.
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on rebalanced. Having problems with the mouse and movement being very sluggish. Acts like the CPU is overloaded as the mouse response is terrible. But its running 30% CPU. I7 Dell inspiration laptop.
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in the hopes of getting the archers/axethrowers more into play
give axers raise dead spell when upgrading to lvl4
while human archers get haste spell when upgrading to rangers.. this only applicable to themselves. not hasting other characters. kind of a sprint ability that costs some mana....
give runes spell instantly when reaching lvl7 berserkers
rangers lvl7 get invisibility, again only to themselves.
knights,
give them slow spell
to even out vs lusted ogres.
keep autoheal.
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Only the long thinking of the archers before the attack has undergone changes. Does it look good already?
With the usual upgrades, such archers already look formidable.
What happens if you tweak the stats a little? :)
We look:
what level were those archers and grunts?
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Still talking with alot of peoples, here some other great ideas.
Not sure who it was: Would be cool if the last setting that we choose between classic and rebalance will auto save.
( because when you host rebalanced and you finish the game, it cames back to classic, and most of the time peoples forgot to put it back to rebalanced and they must play classic )
LUX said: Would be cool if we can drop wood or gold pack with a peon, exemple, you die at 5 and you escape with some peons, but those peons have gold pack and woods, so they have slowed mouvement mobility, or even worst, they cant chop to get outside, so it would be cool if you can drop those gold pack or stack of wood on the floor and you can do whatever you want after. Like chopping or moving faster to get at ur new expantion.
Also: Would be cool if the rally point was working with the non units building too, like a farm, smith lumber, ogers mound etc... Right now rally point only work on building with units, but it should work with all the buildings.
Will be cool if we also can repair when rally, so by exemple i finish a building and i rally my peon to another building for repair, so when he goes to the other building he auto repair it.
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what level were those archers and grunts?
Orcs - lvl 1, archers had custom improvements (lvl7)
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Still talking with alot of peoples, here some other great ideas.
Interesting ideas!
Also: Would be cool if the rally point was working with the non units building too, like a farm, smith lumber, ogers mound etc... Right now rally point only work on building with units, but it should work with all the buildings.
Will be cool if we also can repair when rally, so by exemple i finish a building and i rally my peon to another building for repair, so when he goes to the other building he auto repair it.
This is already somewhat similar to the shift command in Starcraft. We also want to introduce something like that later. But so far the necessary technologies have not yet been studied)
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you must at least create 3 archers to kill one dragon
But dragons cost as much as a car... so equal to a couple archers -- if you make archers that much powerful it diminishes incentive to purchase dragon -- so you are just tipping the balance
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But dragons cost as much as a car... so equal to a couple archers -- if you make archers that much powerful it diminishes incentive to purchase dragon -- so you are just tipping the balance
That is why my suggestion is to simply remove the lag (dullness) of archers.
So that they at least shoot, and not blunt.
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you must at least create 3 archers to kill one dragon
But dragons cost as much as a car... so equal to a couple archers -- if you make archers that much powerful it diminishes incentive to purchase dragon -- so you are just tipping the balance
Yes i understand that, but dragons are not suppose to be strong against archers and troll, the only purpose of archers and trolls in this game is to counter air... There no reason why a dragon or gryphon will outplay archers and trolls.
Dragons and gryphons counter Ogers knights, not archers and trolls. And archers or troll dont counter ogers or knights, they counter dragons and gryphons. If they cant counter air, then they are irrelevant.
So i dont see how a dragons or gryphons will counter ogers knights and also archers and trolls, make no sens.
I dont say 1 archer must kill a dragons, but its not normal that if i get attack by 2 dragons i barelly need to make 8 archers to kill them.
The goal with dragons is to chase ogers, if you see archers you should fly away and save them.
The best way to play air is to make them patrol some strategic paths the ogers use to com at ur base.
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the only purpose of archer and trolls is to counter air...
i'd argue they have more purpose... defeating choke, killing repairing peons, cheap scouts
Also saying drags only counter trolls is selective as well... they also good at raping peons that are walled
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the only purpose of archer and trolls is to counter air...
i'd argue they have more purpose... defeating choke, killing repairing peons, cheap scouts
Also saying drags only counter trolls is selective as well... they also good at raping peons that are walled
Thats not really true bro, maybe for some low level skills players, but pro players dont break choke with archers trolls.
Because when you break choke you need grunts, if you rush then you dont build lumber, and if you finally build lumber you are slowing ur rush, if you slow ur rush then dude probably have tons of grunts over you and ur archer will not do anything, because now ur still outrush by ur ennemie. Most of the time peoples who build lumber will make a cat instead because now, ur cat will do tons of dmgs, especially if the guys do a double choke, archer hit 1 grunts at time and barely do 5% dmg per hit, Catapul or balista can hit 6 grunts at time and basicly do 60% dmg to all of them.
If you try to unchoke someone with archer troll he only will go back and make a bigger choke, you gonna enter his base and hes gonna fuck you bad cuz now you did absolutly no dmg to his grunts and he still outrushing you, but if you unchoke someone with a cat, the first shot of that cat will wreck 4-5 grunts and now hes gonna be panic, you also will be able to uc that cat and make way much more dmg because the sight of that cat is way much bigger then the sight of archer troll.
Now yes archer troll can be usefull to stop peon repairing, but even there it's basicly only in neighbor war 1v1, most of the time peoples will go for tower instead cuz tower have more sight and more dmg ( like a catapult ) they are also harder to kill. Anyway a good player will keep repairing against an archer and will move back peon before he die and bring new one 100% healt while is tower finish to upgrade and make that archer irrelevant. Thats why basicly no one are using archer to stop peons repairing because most of time it dont work at all.
And now please, nobody use archer to scout, dont said that ever, who the hell will use archer to scout when you can use a peon lol.
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12/2 war i see pro players using archer to break choke; also archer used by pro players when walling in dual
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12/2 war i see pro players using archer to break choke; also archer used by pro players when walling in dual
Can you show me any video of that?
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Can you show me any video of that?
https://bit.ly/3peX4Cu
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literally first video i clicked on had an example
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmokyKnottyDonutDxAbomb-Z72Qz3_quufhW0Nj
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Can you show me any video of that?
https://bit.ly/3peX4Cu
Sure you will rick roll bro, because nobody do that, maybe some kind of players like braviet and paperboy who love to do random strategie, but in general top players will not made archers, thats a fact.
Thats was a valuable strategie in 2010 when everyone was bad, not in 2021 anymore.
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literally first video i clicked on had an example
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmokyKnottyDonutDxAbomb-Z72Qz3_quufhW0Nj
Give me full video please
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1237796786 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1237796786)
446
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1237796786 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1237796786)
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So wait did you just give me a video of braviet failing on U8 with trolls just to proof everything i just said before?
First he dint unchoke nothing, u8 just realize he was outrushing him and ran after him, because like i told you if you made archers to unchoke someone you will barely do no damage and you will be outrush...
You just proove everything i just said and what funny is 1 post before you post that clip i told you only braviet or parperboy sol will do that kind of newbe stuff and you literally post a video of braviet losing with this strategie lol.
You surely can clip it so we can see the rest of the video.
Com on bro lol :rofl:
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What about giving archers +1 range and more attack but keep firing rate the same? They would be better behind walls but would still die fast when attacked directly.
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Why not just rename title of thread "suggestions on how to split community up and kill game faster?"
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Are there people developing/playing/interested in this mod?
I'm new, but I found fliers to be infeasible. Can that be modified?
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Make three minor changes to Humans - anything drastic, and the player base will split.
Don't have to reinvent the wheel:
1.) Mages start out with slow.
2.) Paladins heal is a little more effective -- in some way shape or form (at least make it worth upgrading to).
3.) Fix Ballista's - I believe there's a small delay in one of the animations.
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I wouldn't even touch the orcs - just give Humans a minor boost to those two units (which has been obvious for decades).
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There is a mod created which focuses on just the heal. it uses auto
heal but the orcs still more op, but it’s a lot more manageable.
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Make three minor changes to Humans - anything drastic, and the player base will split.
Don't have to reinvent the wheel:
2.) Paladins heal is a little more effective -- in some way shape or form (at least make it worth upgrading to).
3.) Fix Ballista's - I believe there's a small delay in one of the animations.
Sensible post.
Mages are fine.
Paladin speed upgraded to ~16, run and heal would balance well against lust, and leave the rest.
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Alternatively slow down Ogres to 12 (-1) and speed up Paladins +1 or +2
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Hi Friend, here are some ideas i have in mind.
- Troll/Archers lags before shot solution is ok. And i think i could shot a little faster to make them a viable unit to mix with grunts. Right now, nobody use them cause Towers are more cost/effective in defense.
- Catapults have a small problem, when u almost shot something, and click to move, the charge dissapear and u miss the opportunity. Thats is annoing if u are supporting an attack. And could have a bar, to show u when they are ready, like the chop bar.
- Paladin Autohealing is the best upgrade to counter lust, but bloodlust is waaayyy op. Healing could cost 3/4 MP to balance this or Lust do double damage instead of triple
- DKnights Raise Dead range could be 9 (i think is 6, and Exorcism is 10) to cast more far away from battle, so the Skeletons could defend the mage when its run away. And the skeletons cost 25MP.
This one are the "BASE" one for me, that doesnt involve to much changees.
Others i ll love to see could.
-Mage´s Fireball could explode at the end or when it hits and Structure. Death Coil is fine, cause it never miss and heals and Expensive/useful unit
-In Warcraft1 Humans have Water Elemental and Orcs, Daemons. This ones were a nice touch and add variety. Could be build in the same Magetower.
-If Blizzard dont kill the enemy, they could be slow down, like "freezing" just a small time. DDecay could have like a burn effect.
-Repair Catapults/Ships with peons
-Transport could board 9 units
-Archer/Troll could be fasters than Grunts (speed 10) like 11 so they can hit and run. This cause, for logic, they are a base unit with lighter armor than grunts. And Ogres could be 12 cause Powerfull but big and slow, and Knights 14 so they can hit, run, heal and comeback.
-If u upgrade to Ranger/Berserk
+ 10 HP (default)
+ 3 Sight
+ 1 Speed
+ 1 Armor
And when u reach Castle/Fortress, 255 MP so they can shot magic arrows/axe like DIABLO Cold Arrows and Flame Axes. 100 Mana Cost, and 3-5 more DMG.
Now they are more useful to attack and counter defend dragons/gryphnos.
-Stables/Ogre Mound. When u reach Castle could have Upgrades, like Stell Hammers/Gloves +1 DMG, Heavy Armor +1Armor, Combat Training +1 Speed.
-Demosquad can do a little attack dmg, not just explode and die. More than a Peasant, but less than a base Archer.
- When u reach Castle/Fortress, can build 1 HERO of your choise, and rebuild it when necessary.
I Think, this could change the game to be more In-Game Tactics focused, and not just build a bunch of Ogres, lust and send them to attack. Warcraft2 is a Production game, the more/fast you produce, the more chances to win. So with this changes, you could have tons of different strategies.
Thanks for trying to make this masterpiece more re-playeable. If i could help you with something let me know.
Keep the good work. (English is not my native language) ;)
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sappers already can attack in default game lol wtf
for hero there is already triggers game mode (with many cursed stuff including heroes)
there was cats repair before in rebal but was removed cuz peoples not liked it seems
transport cannot get more units cuz memory limited
rangres and berserkers cannot have mana because they actually using this stat already its just hidden - berserkers heal 1 hp per 240 mp regen when they have upgrade and rangers have it too even though they not regen hp from it
bloodlust actually dealing x2 dmg and works as intended but only for unarmored units, for units with armor it can change depends on armor and upgrades up to x3 or even x4 (cuz armor removed after doubling damage)
long reload after reorder actually not only catapults have this problem - its for any unit, ranged units like archers or especially catapults just have long reload animation after shot and if attack animation actually started u cannot stop it u need to wait to end but to actually shot projectile unit must have attack order not move order or some other
u can do this thing with grunts too - if u order them move or stop the instant they started attack animation they will actually STILL swing axe but not deal damage or make any hit sounds but then it seems like they immedeiately can make one more hit - its just because they not have idle standing "reload" animation between axe swings
(actually they have but its only 1 frame, while cata have like 140 frames delay)
changing units speed actually possible but prob still cannot make archers usable by many peoples (until u make them so op than grunts are usless but then we basically have same problem again)
archers problem is not only speed or long reload its also economically - u need build extra lumbermill its not worth from start of game unless u go some tower rush or tower def
and in mid game u prob will have like 6-10 grunts already so u only need archer for some special situation like shotting peon who repairs building to open path (and peoples prefer use catapults for this)
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Why not just rename title of thread "suggestions on how to split community up and kill game faster?"
dumb post from a moron
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is there any way to customise hotkeys?
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if u mean hotkeys in default game then
https://forum.war2.ru/index.php/topic,5968.0.html
but if u mean hotkeys for additional buttons that being spawned in triggers or rebalanced mode (like atoheal button and etc)
then sorry no, they are hardcoded in war2mod (i prob can make something with it but too lazy)